My Trans Arkie Trials

Last night I sat down to do some honing. I had 3 that needed a little work on the edge. Not going from a restored razor, just in need of some microchips removed and cleaning up of the edge/bevel. I took all 3 razors up to the 12K. Then finished one on the 20K as I normally do. Then broke out the Arkie. Guessing about numbers of strokes, I did about a total of 400 laps. Started with clean water, then water with WD-40, straight WD-40, water with Balistol then straight Balistol. I tried to go with straight neatsfoot oil but it was just too thick and didn't want to let the razor slide on the stone.

I took the 3rd blade to my Jnat. I know I said I was going to work with one natural stone until I got it learned but... On the Jnat I made a slurry with a Tomo twice. Changing the slurry around 200 laps. Adding a bit of water along the way. Finished on clear water.

The bevel of the Jnat edge was so much of a matt finish there really wasn't much to look at. On the Arkie bevel, I could see some stria under the matt finish but the edge on both looks very straight and refined. So I figured this was about the best I can do at the moment.

Today's test shaves with all 3 razors...
The 20K edge felt and acted like it normally does. Keen and sharp. Not extremely comfortable but not harsh. A standard 20K edge IMO.
The Jnat was keen. It did feel a touch different than the 20K edge but not much. I guess I was expecting a bigger difference in the feel of the Jnat edge with that matt finish on the bevel. A little more comfort but not that much difference.
The Trans Arkie felt keen and comfortable. Almost felt as if it wasn't that keen but it slid thru the whiskers without any problem. So the comfort level was much higher than I'm used too. With the stria showing thru the matt finish I was expecting a little more harshness. Nope.

Now, I know this is just the beginning of my learning the Arkie. I've only had a few razors honed on it so far and its getting better. So I'm hoping that someday in the near future I will get this Arkansas stone worked out and get fantastic edges from it. Still on the lookout for the great Thuri stone some day but I might want to upgrade my Arkie to a bigger one first. That is if I get along with it as much as I think I will.

So, there you have it. I said I would post up my experience this weekend. I will give another 3 razors a chance on the stones tonight. Might even try my hand at 2 on the Arkie. We will see.

If you quit worrying about stria, you might find (like I did) that stria is not a smoothness killer.

Way to go Jerry. Keep it up and you may become an Arkie lover/

I was a bit surprised at the feel of the Arkie edge. Some natural stone give a feel to the edge that I can only explain as a rubbery feel. I know, this dont make sense but its what I get from them. The Arkie didn't have this at all. Sitting down right now to do a bit of honing. Its my Satuday and everyone went to bed. Now its my time of the day or night or whatever it is. 5pm on the clock in my head being a night guy.

Well done, Jerry.

What was the condition of your blade before you did the 400 laps on the Trans Ark? Was it already in "near shave-ready" condition just needing a refresh? If so, I am not sure I would have the patience to do that many laps for just a touch-up. I have to refresh a razor about once a week as my beard is hard on edges, so doing 400 laps a week would take quite a bit of time. Of course, with frequent touch-ups, maybe 400 would not be required.

Obviously I need more razors so I can play more with my Arks. Saturday I got to touch up my traveler (I call her my 'Outback Beater' since Mike had gifted her to me a couple of years ago and this was her first touch up) which was tugging on my last trip. The edge looked really good under the loop so I only used the translucent finisher. I started dry and advanced to water, soapy water, oil, then finished with CrOx slurry (thin this time). Probably spent about 20-25 minutes on her. Sunday she gave a smooth, comfortable shave.
Jerry, I would be curious to what you would experience going to the ark finisher after like an 8k hone. Report back soon!!

Ray, im not so sure i really needed to do 400 laps. That was just a guess but i think it was close. I had taken the razor to shave ready off a 12k so it was not in need of anything really. This was just an experiment so i could see if i could make the Arkie work for me. And it did.

Now my understanding is that these stones are made for finishers. Not prefinsher. Meaning the edge needs to be right before you go to it. I could be wrong. Also we are talking about the hardest type of Arkie stone. The softer ones mostlikely will cut more so they would help in correcting a lessor edge needing a touch up. Then to the hard one for finishing.

Its very possible that i could have gotten the same edge after 200 laps but that wouldnt have been as fun. I like honing. And I wanted to be sure i went to the max with the stone. Hell, this could have been a fluke and it may take months before I get it again. Ha. Thats honing with a new stone.I bet now that im working my way thru all my razors making 100% sure they are perfect, i know i do many more laps than 400 every time i sit down to the stones. I think its fun.

Paul, that was my next experiment is to go from the 8k to the hard Ark. I read that it is possible. I did not sit down to the stones last night so i will wait for me next weekend to play some more. I will shave with this edge a few times this week to get to know it and to understand a little more of what im feeling.

Not knocking it, but using a crox on an arkie stone seems to me that you are getting a crox edge. Not an arkie edge. Im sure it would do a fine job putting a very keen edge on a razor. But i want to try just the Arkie stone for now. With clean stropping. And thats another thing. I strop the hell out of my razors. Off the stone i bet i do 50 to 70 on linen and 150 to 200 on leather. After a shave i do 30/60. Before a shave 30/100. It dont take long to do and i enjoy it. But this is another story.

Jerry,

Is your Arkie the surgical black or the translucent?
What size is it?
I've always been curious about them.

Pete <:-}

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Ray, im not so sure i really needed to do 400 laps. That was just a guess but i think it was close. I had taken the razor to shave ready off a 12k so it was not in need of anything really. This was just an experiment so i could see if i could make the Arkie work for me. And it did.

Now my understanding is that these stones are made for finishers. Not prefinsher. Meaning the edge needs to be right before you go to it. I could be wrong. Also we are talking about the hardest type of Arkie stone. The softer ones mostlikely will cut more so they would help in correcting a lessor edge needing a touch up. Then to the hard one for finishing.

Its very possible that i could have gotten the same edge after 200 laps but that wouldnt have been as fun. I like honing. And I wanted to be sure i went to the max with the stone. Hell, this could have been a fluke and it may take months before I get it again. Ha. Thats honing with a new stone.I bet now that im working my way thru all my razors making 100% sure they are perfect, i know i do many more laps than 400 every time i sit down to the stones. I think its fun.

Paul, that was my next experiment is to go from the 8k to the hard Ark. I read that it is possible. I did not sit down to the stones last night so i will wait for me next weekend to play some more. I will shave with this edge a few times this week to get to know it and to understand a little more of what im feeling.

Not knocking it, but using a crox on an arkie stone seems to me that you are getting a crox edge. Not an arkie edge. Im sure it would do a fine job putting a very keen edge on a razor. But i want to try just the Arkie stone for now. With clean stropping. And thats another thing. I strop the hell out of my razors. Off the stone i bet i do 50 to 70 on linen and 150 to 200 on leather. After a shave i do 30/60. Before a shave 30/100. It dont take long to do and i enjoy it. But this is another story.

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I agree with you on the CrOx edge. It bothered me initially (and looks ghastly against such a pretty stone) but the edges I've been getting give me such a great shave. And this damn CrOx crayon needs to be used!
I'm going to touch up my new Wade and Butcher here soon (doesn't really need it but honing is fun) and I'll not use the CrOx for comparisons.

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Originally Posted by RayClem

Well done, Jerry.

What was the condition of your blade before you did the 400 laps on the Trans Ark? Was it already in "near shave-ready" condition just needing a refresh? If so, I am not sure I would have the patience to do that many laps for just a touch-up. I have to refresh a razor about once a week as my beard is hard on edges, so doing 400 laps a week would take quite a bit of time. Of course, with frequent touch-ups, maybe 400 would not be required.

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I found that when I moved to Translucent Arkie finishers, I didn't need to do touch-ups as often. I don't know why but the blades went several weeks between visits to the stone where coticule edges needed to go back weekly.

how is the surface of your ark finished? is it burnished? or fresh out of the box? Dan's or someone else's?

Mine is a Dans trans ark. I spend a couple hours on sanding and burnishing it when i got it. 2x8 in size. Went held up to a light you can see reflections of things in the room. To the touch it feel like glass. Its that smooth. The other side i did nothing.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

I found that when I moved to Translucent Arkie finishers, I didn't need to do touch-ups as often. I don't know why but the blades went several weeks between visits to the stone where coticule edges needed to go back weekly.

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Just taking a wild stab at it, but under a loupe my coticule creates an edge roughly equivalent to a Norton 8K, my Arkansas stones all seem to be roughly equal to my Shapton 12k. I generally find I get more mileage out of an edge that starts it's life at a finer polish.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Mine is a Dans trans ark. I spend a couple hours on sanding and burnishing it when i got it. 2x8 in size. Went held up to a light you can see reflections of things in the room. To the touch it feel like glass. Its that smooth. The other side i did nothing.

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That sounds like mine but its a 3x8. Mine is super reflective. Still trying to figure mine out though. Following your thread with interest. Best edge I got off of mine was coming off a 12k then doing a lube progression with smiths. 1/2 water half smiths then continuing to add smiths. Also used a little torque at the beginning ending with as light as I could go. Probably had about 400-500 laps when done. The edge came out smooth but similar in keenness to my 12k edges if not a touch less keen.

I know what your saying jfk742. I shaved with it again today. Was it keen, yes. No pulling or issues going thru the whiskers. The feel was less harsh than a 12k. Not that i find the 12k harsh but the Arkie edge felt like it was lacking just a little compared to a 12k or 20k. After a stroping i put it under the microscope and i see no flaws in my edge. Yes it cuts and feels more comfortable but just not as keen as im used too.

Outback has said in the past i like a keener edge than him and maybe this is what the issue is. The edge is mostlikely right, im just used to a sharper feel.

Jerry, thanks for the additoinal info. Most helpful.

What I have found with Arks is that they can vary, and for me old stones seem to be finer than “newer stones”. So, keep in mind that stones will vary.

Finishing with Arks I use more pressure than other naturals, experiment with pressure or torqueing. Inking the bevel can help you judge torque or pressure. I can finish coming off an 8k but am using a Naniwia Snow White Fuji, that leaves a near mirror finish, or 12k.

While you don’t have to be stria obsessed, you do want all the deep stria removed at the edge. If you are torqueing, stria will be removed at the edge and maybe not across the whole bevel, depending on the razor. Be careful with hollow grinds, too much torque can lift the edge off the stone.

I do not do anything near 400 laps, but do vary the pressure, (start with more, finish with less) and the amount of lube, Smiths or Ballistol on a wet stone. Start with 3-4 drops on a flooded stone and add a drop as needed, same for water. I use a squirt bottle for water and can add a drop at a time. Smiths and Ballistol, I keep in a 1oz bottle that will dispense a single drop. I push the puddle back and forth across the stone

So, the variables are, the stone, the stone prep, lube and pressure or torque. And of course, the hardness of the steel.

I also like the feel of Kapton tape on hard arks, better than electrical tape, it is thinner and slicker than electrical, so you will want to use it on your pre-finisher to get the bevel right, before finishing. Ink will tell you when you are there.

Thanks Marty. This next weekend i will play with it some more. Being a full hollow, as most of my razors are, torque is a tough one. I will ink it up and see how much i can give it. Drop at a time with the ballistol? Hell, in the end i had flooded the stone in the stuff. Ha. Sure made a mess.

A trick with hollows is to use two hands and place your index fingers on the blade over the bevels, about an inch in from the heel and toe.

You will find it does not take much downward pressure to affect the polish, remember you are polishing not grinding and you don’t need “that” much pressure. Experiment, here again Ink will help you see quickly what effect different pressure and technique will have. Colored ink is easier to see.

Jerry-Keep playing with those arkies. I just refined the edge on my big chef's knife on my 8x3" SB Ark and my usual WD-40, and am just stunned at the edge I got so easily-shredding tiny slivers of copy paper all along the edge just now.

Wouldn't it be cool if we could have meet-ups where different tables have different stone types to play with: We arkie nuts could go crazy, another for cotis, one for Jnats, etc. (Cue my sons groaning-my grown sons (1 engineer and 1 who is an outdoorsman's outdoorsman)-neither give a rat's ass about honing their many fine knives; they know Dad will take over and do it right).

That Arkie will continue to amaze you as you get to know it-and mind-blowing results can happen much quicker than you normally hear about for these stones. Keep us Arkie junkies posted!

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I also like the feel of Kapton tape on hard arks, better than electrical tape, it is thinner and slicker than electrical, so you will want to use it on your pre-finisher to get the bevel right, before finishing. Ink will tell you when you are there.

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Just got me thinking.

If you are applying torque why would the tape be much of a difference?

I admire you fellows and your Arks. Is fun to follow along! :)

“If you are applying torque why would the tape be much of a difference?”

We are talking microns here. The spine and tape are still on the stone.

One of the complaints of non-tape users is the rubbery drag of tape, and there is some, though very little. Kapton reduces drag and it is tough.

When honing a thin hollow ground razor, too much pressure (torque is pressure) can flex the blade and lift the very edge off the stone.

I often use electrical tape to set a bevel then switch to Kapton on the mid-grit stone to re-set the bevel angle and continue with the finisher(s).

I use kapton tape but i do it to get the right angle on the edge. Electrical tape if i need more and kapton if no tape is needed for adjustment. The stuff is tough.

Will have to look into Kapton tape. Is it good to use for bevel setting on 1k waterstones and the like?

Jerry, using the unfinished side of the stone? I know Steel uses one burnished one not on some of his arks.

Keep up the good work guys. I'll keep honing/restoring vicariously through you guys lol.

The Kapton tape can be used when bevel setting but at 1k any tape will break down. But i feel this stuff hold up better that electrical tape. The problem with it is its not streatchable. You if your trying to take the edge of a smiling spine, its not going to lay perfectly when you try to lay it over onto the sides of the spine.

I havent played with the other side of my stone yet. I dont think i will for a while if ever. If i manage to get the edge im looking for with this one i might pick up a softer arkie to play with. But this is a long time from now. It took me many many months to learn to hone properly with synthetics stones. So i got a ways to go before i can say i know the trans ark.

Time is the only difference, between Nats & synthetics Jerry.
The end results are the same, it just takes longer to get there, with Nats.

I've spent whole days honing, some razors. And I've been with rock n hand since I was like 7 years old, honing knives n such, then razors, ten years later.

I learned on my own, for the most part. Finding this place taught me about the different hones used for razors, and really upped my game, drastically.!! So your farther ahead in the game, than I was, for the time you've been at it. I had to rough it out. :rofl2:


Keep at it bro, one day you'll hear what the stones are telling you. They do speak to us, but you have to listen with your hands and fingers, like a blind man reads brail.

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Originally Posted by outback

Keep at it bro, one day you'll hear what the stones are telling you. They do speak to us, but you have to listen with your hands and fingers, like a blind man reads brail.

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This all day long-"Getting the feel" of your stone and its interface with the razor is everything.

About to sit down for the evening with my rocks. Thanks for the confidence Mike. I know i will get there. Its a long slow trip. At least i know this nowadays. A couple years ago i just couldnt believe it would takr so much time and effort to learn a stone.

Hence my saying below. I put it there to remind me and to let others know i was wrong in the beginning.

I put some more time on the Trans Arkie. Used some tourque to get some work on the very edge. Did a test shave this morning and i didnt notice any more keenness. Shaved about the same as the first two times i used it. I will kill the edge slightly and go back the the synthetic stones to be sure all is 100%. Then go to the Arkie again. Hoping i can find a little more off this stone. Its not bad, just feels lacking to me.

I will try it in the morning before work and post up my findings.

Like I said I was going to do, I killed the edge on this razor, went back to the 2k thru 12k making sure every step along the way was as perfect as possible. Then went to the Trans Ark with some WD-40. After a while (didn't count laps) 100 or so laps maybe, I started adding Ballisol oil to the stone. I might have done another 150 laps adding a bit of Ballistol along the way. Stroped and now its ready for the test shave in the morning. It passes the TPT but when testing by the Arm Hair it isn't grabbing the hairs as my final edges normally do. Hoping this is just part of the Arkie way.

So here is a pic of the edge at this time. USB Microscope and keep in mind that the blotchy black marks above the edge are about 1mm apart, so your not seeing much of the edge.

Attachment 300874

Looks pretty similar to my Arkie edges and the same on arm hairs. I love the microscope pics.

On another note, have you tried going from the g20k to the ark. I wonder if you went straight to ballistol and do fewer laps like 20-50. A g20k edge with an Arkie kiss.

That is another option. And thanks for the comment on the arm hair test. That one kinda bothered me. I will be headed for the water room in an hour to get ready for work. So I will soon be finding out how I did.


After the Test Shave, I was very impressed. The keenness was much more like I enjoy and the edge did feel a bit more comfortable on my face. So this is a WIN so far. Now as long as I can do this again...
Next weekend I will break out another Razor and give this another try. Crossing my fingers this wasn't a fluke and I will be able to do it again. Thanks for the support, kind words and help along the way. I might not have continued without the confidence of my shave family!

Yesterday, I shaved with my Otto Deutsch.

I noticed right away that it needed some attention.

I have a small 4x2 Case translucent ark that has been sitting idle for a long time. I figured I'd try it for the refresh instead of my 16k Shapton glass stone.

The thing I noticed right away was the great feedback and feel that the stone has. It really let me know how I was progressing and when I was done. I started using it with a drop of soap and water and progressively diluted to pure water. It's nowhere near as fast as the Shapton, but got the job done pretty quickly.

Today's shave was a treat. The edge was keen and had a really nice, different, more noticeably smooth feel than I get when finishing on the 16k Shapton. I can't wait to try it on Sheffield steel.

Looks like I'll be talking to Dan's about getting one of these that is a more suitable size thanks to Jerry the enabler:shrug:

Pete <:-}

I do my best to enable... I mean share. That 2x4 is so small i dont know how you managed Pete. But props to you for giving it a try. Im thinking i need to find a larger stone for myself in the future. Glad you found my info helpful and enabling enough to give it a try. Thanks for posting up your finding and hope you too can join in on the Arkie fun Im having and learning.

Attachment 301042
Here's a quick pic. of the culprits.

The box says hard Arkansas, but it's as translucent as they come. Light shines right through.

Ya, it's small. Just had to go slow and take my time.

Like I said, fantastic feedback and super comfortable edge.

Pete <:-}

Beautiful Trans Ark and a Hans in nice shape. I had one in near-NOS condition and sold it because I prefer beefier grinds, but it is a beautiful, iconic razor.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

A trick with hollows is to use two hands and place your index fingers on the blade over the bevels, about an inch in from the heel and toe.

You will find it does not take much downward pressure to affect the polish, remember you are polishing not grinding and you don’t need “that” much pressure. Experiment, here again Ink will help you see quickly what effect different pressure and technique will have. Colored ink is easier to see.

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The finer the grind of the razor the less pressure the better.
The heavy half hollow blades hone easier for beginners because they do not flex with uneven pressure.

Magic marker of a color you can see well is always a good idea as is a bright light inspection.

Circles with fine grit hones combined with magic marker can make a slight smile easy to hone.
Circles with coarse grits can cause false chipping that haunt the razor.

Good stuff...