Printable View
I have been honing a while but it seems hit and miss.
My question: are there any tests for sharpness that don't involve cutting arm hair? My arm hair doesn't cut easily. Using 1200 king to set bevel; I can barely cut arm hair. I then use the Norton 4/8K. Off the 8K the arm hair cuts easier, but never above the skin.
Is it necessary to use something like chromium oxide to finish a razor. Using stones doesn't give consistent results and at times not sharp enough.
Joe
Here's the section on Sharpness Tests from the Library.
When starting out with honing, I found the TNT (thumbnail test) to be the most beneficial for me. Also did arm hair tests but never any HHT charades. Eventually, I worked up to TPT (thumbpad test) when I finally decided I wouldn't let that one bug me.
I have been using the TNT for years.
Pete <:-}
SRP Library to the rescue:
https://shavelibrary.com/w/Sharpness_tests_explained
Simple
There is no one test for everyone
Try them all at each stage until one test becomes YOUR go / nogo never fail test then expand from there
+1 for thumbnail test. Though I don’t use it past bevel set. I use a loupe throughout the honing process, watching the water and the feel of razor on the hone can usually tell you all you need to know after the bevel set.
Like Glen said, figure out your own tests by trying everything. As you develop your honing skills you will figure out what works and what doesn’t, for you. Test shave your edges and pay close attention to what your tests look and or feel like before the shave, you’ll eventually get really good idea if the edge will feel god before the steel even touches your face.
Mark and Glen got it covered for ya.
You just need to know what works for you.
Above the arm, Hair test, or tree topping as its called, after finishing is a good one but it can tell you two things. One, You have microchips and it's pinching the hairs in half or two, you got an edge so sharp its finding the spot between the folicals and wedging them apart. (If that's the right word? I know its not spelled right.)
TNT at bevel set and TPT at finish plus a good loupe should tell you everything, but you need to know what its really telling you. And that takes practice. Non-consistency is normally from not enough practice. Keep at it and keep testing. You will find what works. Sure you can shave off an 8K, but I bet most of us would consider that a Pre-finisher.
I also use the thumbnail test for determining when the edge has arrived. From there, I use tactile feel on the stone and naked-eye observation augmented by an ~10x achromatic triplet loupe as to viewing chipping, scratch patterns, and relative polish. Sometimes, I also check to see if a few hairs are popping off the back of my hand towards the end of a honing progression, followed by the hanging-hair test after stropping. Otherwise, I've stopped checking via arm hair as I don't like walking around with patchy arms, particularly in summertime.
After the TNT at bevel set, I lean on an 10x achromatic triplet -- that is to say, an actual jeweler's quality loupe instead of an LED-festooned $5 pile of garbage from mainland China -- to keep tabs on progression progress and any unwelcome problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brontosaurus
I cannot stress enough the tool quality difference between a typical Amazon $5 LED "poop-loop" and for example a BelOMO 10x achromatic triplet (< $40 usually but depends upon promos at the time of purchase).
If you don't mind viewing the world through a pseudo fog and feel like experiencing some minor eye strain, go China!
Agree with the folks above on the TNT. Nail that and the rest of the process is edge refinement and/or polishing. If you don't nail that, the rest of your efforts will be in vain.
I also use a test very similar to the one that Murray Carter promotes. I cannot in good conscience recommend it without caveats. It's a very good test but can also be very dangerous. Proceed with extreme caution.
All great points so far.
A few other pointers:
First tape the spine with some electrical tape. Second ink the bevel with a sharpie, now do a few laps on your King, you can easily see whether you are honing to the edge, this may mean using x strokes, rolling x strocks etc, also known as hoing gymnastics. If you are removing all of the pen, your good to go. Carry on using the same strokes until the bevel has formed the perfect apex. This is where the loupe comes in, look down the bevel and from the side, slowly angling your razor to see if there is any sparkles indicating that the bevel is not fully set. Once you can see that the bevel is fully set you can use other sharpness tests to clarify. Now that the bevel is set you can move onto your Norton to remove the previous stria that the King made, keep using the loupe to check that your on the right path.
If in doubt refer to post #4
:tu
I may be stating the obvious but also make sure to run the tests mentioned above with a razor that you know is not set, you have killed the edge. See how that feels, looks. The sparkle of the edge etc. Just to realize the contrast and how things change as the bevel is set.
I've tried all the tests, and have the nice, non-Chinese loupe, but what I usually do is set the razor aside after stropping and try it on a sideburn to cheek the next time I lather up as the real test. If it fails, it goes back to the stones. It it passes it might be my SOTD.
The one test not in the Library and probably second in conclusiveness to the shave test, and easiest to perform is the visual test.
Just look at the edge, not the bevel, the edge, straight down on it with a bright light and magnification. Any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting or chips.
At 1k there will still be some reflection but most of the edge should meet and be uniform. At 4k the edge should be very uniform and at 8k solid black, no reflection.
TPT and Hair test are very subjective, and the user must calibrate themselves to the test. Which means you need to learn what each test should feel like for yourself.
I use TPT and hair test to see if I am making progress and to test at least the toe, middle and heel. If so, I progress to a visual test and look at the whole edge.
Here is an old video/post by toxikwaste that demonstrates the test well
Toxikwaste sharpness test.
Since the OP indicated that his arm hair is difficult to cut, that also raises the question- Is your beard hair also difficult to cut? For many people, your arm hair and your facial hair will be of similar coarseness, but that may not always be the case. I know that for me, if a blade won't pop arm hairs at least 1/4" above my arm, I won't let that blade anywhere near my face. A properly set bevel should shave arm hair at skin level, but it has to be honed to a finer edge to pass the arm hair test, hanging hair test, or to shave comfortably. Although some people can shave off an 8K edge, that is not nearly sharp enough or smooth enough for me.
I have used various sharpness test: the arm hair test, the thumb nail test, the thumb pad test, and the three finger test, the felt block test, and the paper cut test. I realize that cutting paper does some damage to the edge of the blade, but it is a wonderful test for finding any chips in the edge of the blade. I use 15# Tablet paper or newsprint, not heavier copy paper. After doing the paper cut test, I always hone a few more strokes to correct any damage the paper may have caused.
One thing I have noted is that it is necessary to strop the blade before trying to cut hair. Otherwise, the chances of cutting hair are slim.
Great answers. You have to find out what works for you. Try what others have said. But it takes experience. IMO you should be able to cut arm hair pretty easily bevel set and a quick strop or two on whatever jeans or shorts you may be wearing.
Also if you are honing with a bevel trailing stroke, you might have a burr that's preventing the cutting of your hair.
For me arm hair, reflection of the blade, and loupe are my indicators of success. The shave is the measure of success.
As a rule I do not use a bevel trailing stroke while honing a symmetrical grind straight razor. I may when almost finished on a stage in honing do one or two trailing edge strokes followed by a couple of normal edge leading strokes.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyW
Bob
I would suggest finishing on a stone higher than 8k. 10k or 12k would give you a better edge. The best test after a finish on a 12k is show the blade to your arm hairs and several will immediately fall out, petrified of the keen edge! Maybe. :rofl2:
"Off the 8K the arm hair cuts easier, but never above the skin.
Is it necessary to use something like chromium oxide to finish a razor. Using stones doesn't give consistent results and at times not sharp enough."
Joe, how is the shave?
Yes, with practice one could get a very shavable edge off an 8k stone. But Chrome Oxide is at least 30k and 20-30 laps can be done in minutes and will produce an excellent edge and shave.
I doubt your hair that is the issue, as said you have to calibrate the level of sharpness to your edge and your test samples, skin for touch test and hair for hair test.
As your level of honing improves, your edges will get sharper and more comfortable. It is not as easy as rubbing a razor on a stone and getting predictable results. Chrome Oxide is but another tool that has been used successfully for hundreds of years. If that is what it takes for you, that is what it takes.
Make sure, the bevel is fully set, and that you are removing the stria from each of the previous grits. Both common problems for edge issues.
Try adding one layer of tape and doing 30 laps on just the 8k, see if just that improves the edge.
I suspect it is technique, Post some photos of your razor and edges. Guys have posted some good bevel images using a loupe and cell phone recently.
Thanks to everyone for replies. I don't have a camera at this time. The razor I am trying to hone at the moment is: Blossom, The W.Bingham Co, Cleveland, made in Germany. I used a marker on the razor to check my stroke and to see if the bevel was being set.
I used swooping and rolling x since it has a slight smile. I spent quite a bit of time on this using light to very light pressure, but it is not easy to get sharp. It passed the TNT, but after going through the progression: king 1200, Norton 4/8K all I got was a razor that could take off the lather. The bevel looks close, but can't understand why this is taking so long. This razor is fairly light, 4/8 razor. I have a 11/16 razor with a smile and I got that sharp enough to get a good shave.
I have some 1 micron lapping film, but with this razor it doesn't work well: it sticks and feels like it is catching on something, so stopped using it. On my other razor I don't have that problem.
I do have a hasting's triplet, but need to learn how to use it better.
Joe
“I used a marker on the razor to check my stroke and to see if the bevel was being set.“
Marker will not tell you if the bevels are meeting/set. Marker will tell you if you are honing to the edge. If the bevels never meet, there is no edge.
It sounds like the bevel was never fully set. Look at the edge.
Like Marty said, take a look at the edge, use a lamp and see if you can catch any light glinting off of it.
Using light strokes is good but you’re not there yet. Set the razor flat on the 1k stone like your going to start your stroke, now twist the razor like you’re trying to dig the edge into the stone without lifting the spine, this is the kind of applied pressure you want to use. Now, torquing the blade, make your swooping x strokes like you did before but using some pressure, you don’t need a ton just enough to feel like the hone is cutting more aggressively. You can get away with a fair bit of this kind of pressure. If the razor starts to get away from you or your stroke isn’t consistent back off until it is. This technique with set the bevels much faster. Once you get a real edge drag it on the side of the hone, just enough to knock the edge off. This will take care of any kind of burr you may have ended up with and the general problems from a newly created edge. Now use your light strokes, the edge will come back quickly. After that just roll through your progression.
+1 for Euclid’s visual method. It’s what I use up to 4k/5k. If there’s anything seriously wrong, you can see it under a bare bulb. It isn’t totally infallible at 1-2k though, the scratch pattern can obscure some almost-but-not-quite bevel issues that become more apparent at 4/5k when the steel begins to pick up a polish. But it’s usually no issue to go back a grit and fix things up once you’ve seen them.
Once I’m off the 4/5k grit, I strop 10 canvas/20 cordovan and HHT. If the edge cuts hair cleanly and the same all along the edge at 4-5k, the bevel is perfectly set.
Cheers, Steve
For me it’s the TNT after the 1k ts where I start, used to use cherry tomatoes all the time and still do when I have them but most of the time it’s the TNT and watch that water wave then I just move thru the stones, if the wave is not looking right I break out a loupe to see what’s going on.
After I have gone to final finish I Strop and do an HHT and 99% of the time it’s good to shave with but there are times when I’m just not happy and go back to the stones or I will sometimes just touch a pasted strop to get that last bit of edge
I prefer to think of it as entry level to a comfortable shave. In fact I've gotten rather lax on my honing, and at the moment the only straight I have giving me a comfortable shave from my rotation is the one I've been maintaining with a Franz Swaty barber hone that only gets an edge to around 8K. All the rest need a touch up, and I can't seem to be able to decide what hone set and method I want to employ...the down side (if there is such a thing!) of purchasing more hones than one man can use in a lifetime I guess? I've seen it said before that if you can't strop and shave at 8K anything you do beyond that is just wasted time because you'll be going back down to 1K or 4K when your edge disappoints you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
That said, the loupe has become my go-to ready checker. When I look at the edge and don't see any micro chips or burrs, the scratch pattern & polish matches what I expect to get out of the stone that I'm using, and I can flip the edge up and look straight down at the apex to see that it's completely joined heel to toe, then I know beyond a shadow of doubt the edge is as good as my hands can make it with that hone.If for some reason I get finished with the 8K, it looks good under the loupe, I strop and it doesn't shave comfortably - then I take the loupe out again and look the edge over to see what I overlooked during my inspections (or if I rolled the edge with poor stropping technique).
In my opinion, this is the most reliable test you can do because it relies on objective observation, rather than subjective tactile feel which is likely to miss things that negatively impact a shave. I'm sure every blade I've got would catch a thumb nail fine, and most could be dragged across one with no perceptible burrs or chips. To the thumb pad, they all feel razor sharp and even cut arm hair above skin level and pop it handily at the surface. Like the Germania Cutlery works I just picked up and tested did. Under a loupe, it seems to have the tiniest bit of microchipping near the edge leading to a slightly tuggy shave. Things my coarse mechanic's mitts with mostly dead nerve endings at the finger tips can't detect, but my face is more than happy to point out. Which doesn't mean that I don't ever try other tests, but ultimately the loupe is the arbiter of what is or is not ready to be taken to the ultimate test: the shave test. Your mileage may vary, some restrictions may apply.
Those that know me, know I love the cherry tomato test.
When a bevel is set, every mm of edge should easily cut the skin of a cherry tomato with minimal pressure and a slight slicing motion. Any resistance and the bevel is not set.
The feeling should be 99% similar to a shave ready razor cutting the same cherry tomato
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtfufKrwGZ4
So, yes, the tomato test works, but it is like any other test, it must be calibrated, the user needs to learn what the level of sharp feels like when using the test.
As demonstrated by Doc in the video, the first test was able to cut the tomato skin but not at the level the user knew would provide the best shave. He knew there was more he could get out of the edge.
That an edge will cut a tomato skin, is not an indicator that a bevel is fully set, only when the user has calibrated what a fully set bevel “feels” like is the test valid. As has been said a buffed razor with no bevel will cut a tomato skin.
Like any other test, even the shave test, it must be calibrated by the user. There is shaving, and there is shaving. Any one who has honed for a while will tell you, their edges and shaved improved with time.
It is just another test, if you plan to use it, you will have to learn the nuance of the cut. Pick a test or two or three and use them, eventually you will learn the different levels of sharpness.
Nice video, Doc.
Thanks for replies.
I think I am making some progress. Using jfk742's advice about torque helped. I think I am gettting a better idea about that. Also looking at the edge to see if there is any reflection, and to see if it is even. I sharpened a razor today and had a comfortable shave, even caugtht a hair on the HHT which is a first for me.
Thanks for advice
Joe
Hi Joe,
When you‘ve got the edge of 8k which is not cutting your arm hair above the skin level, how does this edge shave your face?
P.S. I do use „3 finger test“ in lower stages of sharpening. At the finishing stage I often use HHT with head hairs from different people (relatives)
Thanks
Regards
Philipp