Ive always used linen before leather so this would feel odd going without. Its worth a try. Its all learning and fun so anything different is worth trying a couple times.
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Ive always used linen before leather so this would feel odd going without. Its worth a try. Its all learning and fun so anything different is worth trying a couple times.
Today i tried a couple misty slurrys lightly to try and bring up a keenner edge. Nope. It shaves but not what im wanting. Still got a couple more ideas and plans to try.
Finally, progress!
I found with this stone i really have to work it. I've been doing less laps lately as I've read, watched vids and have been told thats hundreds of of laps are not really needed. I brought up a slurry with my dmt and worked that slurry for 70+ laps. Just working the slurry. Not deluting. Just keeping it wet. I cleaned it off and did this 3 times. Test shave was a keen and comfortable edge.
I also did a matching blade with 2 sets of the slurry but finished with 50 laps on clear water. Test shave was keen but NOT comfortable. A little harsh.
So, IMO more laps on the slurry are needed with this stone. I might have gotten away with less slurry sessions. And clear water makes for keen but no comfort. Next test is to do it on 2 more razors to see if I can make the same outcome. BTW, I started with a 12k edge and used no Nagura. Only slurry from the stone.
Pay attention to feedback. That sticky sensation. Once you learn that from your stone you will know when to stop by feel.
People talk about the sticky feeling but I never find it. I have noticed the blade sticking a little when I lift it from the stone, but as seen on vids, a blade slowing down and sticking I've never found. On any stone! I'm guessing it because I use tape, but I don't really know.
Is the stone being slow? Yep, this must be it. I thought it was soft and that's why I could not get an edge. But I was guessing and really had no clue.
After dinner tonight I'm going to give a couple more razors the same treatment and see how that turns out. I might just keep going and going on one of them to see if I ever find the sticking feeling. Can't hurt. Not like I don't have plenty of razors to play with. LOL.
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I'm feeling a little better about this rock. Really didn't want to buy another, but I was thinking really hard about it.
Jerry-When you get the "sticky feeling" you will know it-no guesswork needed. I would get it off of the couple of Shobudani J-Nats I used to have when I was done. I even get it at the end stage on my SB Arkie, at least with water or soapy water. Your edge will start squeaking and skipping on the hone, even feeling like it wants to dig in-definitely time to quit and strop at that point!
Thanks, Aaron. I will hone until I find it. Its got to come sooner or later. Or I will hone that edge down to a stub of a razor. :rofl2:
IT AINT STICKING!
1200+ laps now and no sign of sticking or skipping. It ain't happening!
Attachment 305558
I don't know if it's possible to get more uniform than this. But I'm done on this one. Shave test is the only thing left. But it never felt like it wanted to stick.
I was looking for the sticking. I dont think Excessive is a big enough word for what I did. LOL.
I noticed , at least with my stones that when I started using tape, a lot of the sensation went away in my hand. The tape doesn't kill all feedback, but for me it definitely muted it. I still will get certain feedback cues that let me know I'm close to being done, but sticking all but went away. Still will get a chatter feeling, or skipping, and that's when I strop the living crap out of the razor and do another like 10-20 laps on just water, until the chatter comes back. I typically finish on slurry for my stone, but if i'm trying to lop pimples off then I go to straight water. I will add that after a good while with my stone and trying other peoples edges out, my jnat is most definitely a pre finisher that's pretending to be a finisher. Great edges just not hyper keen and smooth like I've tried from others.
-Laramie-
In my quest for the 'one' in the Jnat category, I was told that one of the things to look for in a top class stone was that it not have that sticky feeling. At that level it was not a desirable traight to have in a stone. It is actually a trait of kiita stones, they were known for being silky and a lot less chance they would have the trait of being sticky. Not that every kiita is going to have this trait, just something to look for. A asagi or any other color can have it too just a lower chance.
Gasman, by your description you seem to have one of those sought after stones!
If its the sought "after stone" well, that's cool. Maybe it is or not but either way I just have to figure out the details now.
@Steel, thanks man. Now you tell me. Now i got to start all over. :rofl2:
I was afraid tape might have something to do with it. But i prefer to use tape to adjust angles and protect. Shave test in an hour on that blade to see how it went. I did do only 10 laps on clear water just to see where that goes.
I know i went overboard but i said i would go until it got sticky. Hey, its all fun anyway. It was an hour of serious honing to hit that number. So not too big of a deal. Now i know its not going to stick. Ever!
As expected, the shave was keen but no smooth to it. Over did the hell out of it. Id blame it on clear water for the last few laps but with what I did its hard to say it was one thing. Oh well. I still feel good as Im narrowing down the options on how the use the stone. Still got a couple more ideas so it ain't over yet!
I did figure out i can do around 100 laps in 5 minutes, give or take. So there, I did learn something.:rofl2:
Stiction (sticking-friction) occurs when the plane of the bevel and spine are in perfect alignment with the surface of the stone and water or slurry make up for the slightest anomaly. The bevel is completely flat and in the plane of the spine, bevel angle. The spine is controlling the angle, and the slurry is of a consistency that allows the bevel to cause friction over a large plane (the bevel).
It is probably easier for a un taped razor to stick as tape will vary the spine smoothness, though I get stiction with Kapton tape over electrical, it is smoother, slicker and more wear resistant.
If you are using tape, the wear flat on the spine and bevel may not be in alignment, as only the bevel angle has changed. If you were not using tape they would have worn together and be in perfect alignment.
As said not all stones will produce the right consistency of slurry to cause the added friction. It is not an indicator of stone performance or even keenness of the edge, just flatness of the bevel, (e.g. the edge could still have micro-chips).
Chances are though, if the bevels were properly set/ honed and flat, stiction can be an indicator that it is as flat as the bevel will get.
So, does that mean honing without tape will make a better/flatter bevel?
No, because really all we are interested in is the flatness of the bevel at the edge. Are the bevels meeting at a continuous straight edge? For the quality of the edge, it does not matter, tape or no tape, the benefits of tape out weigh the risk of spine damage.
Try some Kapton tape. Or do your Jnat honing without tape, wear will be minimal, see if it sticks.
Thanks Marty.
My plan, on my next days off is to hone another razor on the jnat without tape. See if i get the stiction. That will tell me if this stone has that ability.
The one i honed the hell out of, i will go back to a little slurry and see if i can pull out a little comfort. Than start another razor or two on the jnat after a 12k edge playing with pressure to see where that gets me.
Although i do need to change the tires on all the vehicles to remove the snow tires and i need to cut down a small tree. The honey-do list never ends. Just gets longer.
I did an experiment once. 4 grey Jnats. Lapped with the same atoma plate, raised slurry with the same tomo to similar consistency.
Then I took a test razor and would go between stones. Hone 20 laps, clean slurry back to stone with my finger and then next stone.
Each stone started sticking at a different time and to a different degree. One got skippy, felt like cogwheel. Another at the same time just felt like increased resistance but no skippiness (not sure if thats a word or not).
What's my point. I think that different stones will develop a different degree of stiction, some will start skipping and it actually isn't that pleasant to hone on them at that point, some will just barely tell you they are starting to grab.
Also slurry consistency plays a role. You can be honing and just dilute the slurry and bam, you are sticking. The cushion between the edge/bevel and the stone is reduced and the contact increased.
Also like Marty pointed out, tape etc will reduce the feeling. My test razor has a beaten spine, pretty wide so the contact areas between the razor and the stone are much larger than a taped, thin beveled razor would have.
Thanks for the comment Alex. I will try and pay closer attention. Maybe its just slowing my stroke down and not sticking. Its a good point.
Jerry do you mind posting a picture of the Jnat? Just curious. And I love seeing pictures of them :)
I think i have one on my phone with the stamp still on it.
Attachment 305751
I was reading the wiki page on JNS. Thought before I started honing this weekend id do a little maintenance on my Jnat. I plan on using the Tomo enstead of my diamond card this weekend so i lapped and polished my Jnat. I think this will do. :rofl2:
I swear to you the stone is dry!
Attachment 305835
To get this result I lapped my Zulu stone. Thinking it is harder than the Jnat i figured it would be a very fine grit for burnishing. Then rubber the two stones together for 10 minutes or so. Then i used my Tomo on the Jnat under running water for another 5 minutes or so. Let it dry, and this was the outcome. I think its smoothed out and polished to the point I can get the magic out of the stone this time.
BTW, here is a pic i found on my phone of the bottom side of my Jnat. For those who like rocks...
This was after sealing it.
Attachment 305837
Wow that’s a nice mirror surface.
Also the back looks awesome.
Not J-Nats per se, but in the "thin to thick" regimen some of us were experimenting around with on arkies, I would typically find that, given a well-done Nani 12k edge as a starting point, I would start "sticking" on plain water (without slurry) at different points along the blade within 50 or so back-and-forth strokes on my highly-burnished 8x3 SB ark with torque on the edge. Then I would/will add a drop of dish soap, and keep going until it sticks again (usually in the neighborhood of 50ish strokes again). Wash, clean and dry, add a spritz of WD-40, and sometimes I will even get stiction with the lube, always finishing with the usual x-stokes to even it all out.
For me, I've gotten the finest edges I've ever shaved with using this method of letting "the sticking point" tell me when I'm done, reducing the friction for the next step, and continuing on. If someone knows another level beyond that on the same kind of stone, I would try it. You guys know how hard novaculite stones are; you really don't want an edge "digging in" on one, so it may be playing with fire, but I haven't ruined an edge that way yet.
I don't have as much experience with Jnats, though I know some can be quite hard. Thanks for sharing the physics behind this phenomenon, Marty-I just mostly hone by intuition feel, and hardly every quantify anything. Interesting thread all around.
When you feel stiction, lighten up on the pressure (and you should) - a lot of it will go away.
Thanks for the comment on the arkie Aaron. The more i read about the Jnat, the more i find in comparison to the Arkie stones.
I will get a chance today to get back to the stone. When, i have no clue. My list of stuff to do has grown to 2 pages. :gaah:
[QUOTE=Gasman;1870718]Thanks for the comment on the arkie Aaron. The more i read about the Jnat, the more i find in comparison to the Arkie stones.
I will get a chance today to get back to the stone. When, i have no clue. My list of stuff to do has grown to 2
Very true Gasman, I have used the same tactics that can push a Arkansas edge up a notch or two on Jnats and others with great results. Works better on harder stones than softer IMO.
OK, I'm having to step away from this Jnat.
I've tried everything others have offered for help. Everything I could read or think of and still it's not getting a good edge. It's close but not a keen edge. No HHT at all. Now I can do 3 laps on the 20K and bring the edge up to keen, but I don't want to have to do this. Possibly the stone but I'm not going to blame the stone when it's possible it's me.
I have sat down with this rock 3 times today. It's pissed me off too many times now. I bet I've got over 60 hours on this stone. I'm going to step back and think about it for a while. Maybe the Jnat is just not for me.
Sorry guys, I thought I was close but I guess not. I just wanted to let everyone know where I'm at with this before I let the thread fade away. I haven't been beaten yet. I'm just going to turn my honing efforts in another direction for now.
Hey Jerry,
I’d be happy to take a look at it if you want to send it over to me - not all of them are first rate razor stones. I have a bunch of them and feel confident that I can tell you if the stone is at fault. I could also send you a ‘known good’ jnat for you to try out.
Thanks for the offer, Steve. I've had a couple of guys offering the same thing. We have a great community of good folks here! Thanks for the offers gentlemen. I will PM.
BTW, I'm just back from a DR. Visit. So, I'm going to give this another try. One more time. I just can't help myself. LOL.
Sometimes it is best to take a breather. Walk away from it, give it some thought and go right back at it.
Like Steve said it may not be you,it might be(most likely) the stone. You are used to 20k and not all jnats are at that level. When you find one, trust me you know.
Arkies are hard to master, so are Jnats and Cotocules. When the right technique is applied to each individual stone then you can squeeze every last bit out of your stone.
After honing with many different types of stones you get a feeling of what works better on a given stone but you should always try a couple of techniques on each stone.
A microscope or quality optics go a long way in helping you determine what you are feeling in the test shave.
I tried again and sill didn't get what i would call a keen edge. Could i shave with it, sure. Id say its about like a 8k at the most. Maybe less. Its now boxed up with my Tomo and will hit the post office here in a few minutes. Shipping it out to one of the fine folks here for there opinion. So i guess by next week i will know if its me or the stones.
Id like to buy another Jnat just because this one pissed me off too many times, but i don't want to buy if the issue is me. Its possible. I really don't think so, but...
I guess we’ll see what the other member thinks. So far I really like the jnat edge, let’s hope you can find one that agrees with you too.