The almighty Naniwa 12k

Well, here's a chance to say "I told you so."

I recently added a Naniwa 12k to my collection of hones. Previously, I was using a progression of Naniwa 1k, 3k, 8k, and then finishing on a thuringian or a coticule. I was able to shave off of every stone, even the 1k, so I knew I was setting the bevel properly. Shaving off of the 8k gave me decent shaves, although a bit harsh. Adding a coticule as a finisher was hit or miss, depending on the razor it seemed. A thuri finish gave me a nice smooth edge, but not matter the finisher, and even off the 8k, I found the edge was never quite keen enough - I often would need to skip or abbreviate the ATG pass, especially on my upper lip.

Why did I wait so long to get a 12k? Well, they're really not very sexy when compared to a natural stone. Anytime I had a bit of cash and I was given a choice between a natural or the 12k, I just could never get excited about the 12k.

What changed? I almost took the plunge on an entry level Jnat, and had even chosen a vendor. But after discussing honing with the vendor, he told me I wasn't ready for a Jnat yet. Well, when a sales person tells me not to buy something of theirs, I listen. I figured he was probably right, and that I had more basics to master. So I spent that money on the Naniwa 12k instead.

And now, I'm getting the keenness I wanted. I'm getting fantastic shaves from the razors I've honed myself. I'm still experimenting with the progression, sometimes using the 12k by itself, sometimes using it before a natural finisher, sometimes using it after a natural finisher. I've been using CrOx as well, but I'll experiment with taking that away soon. Since I knew the 12k is fast, so far my method has been to to 10 laps, examine the edge, and do 10 more if necessary, etc. It's amazing how much a difference 10 laps makes with this stone!

There is an amazing amount of information about this particular stone on this forum (as well as all the other stones I've bought), and it's been an incredible resource while teaching myself to hone. I really feel like I've reached a new chapter in my straight razor journey, thanks to all of you!

Good for you. You finally came around to the 12K Naniwa so no need for an I told you so. Enjoy

Bob

Now put your thoughts to the 20k. Cost is a lot more and you use it a lot less. But that is keen!
Congrats on getting the 12k. It is a great finisher.

I’m only doing synthetics. I prefer the edges from synthetic stones. I get consistency and keenness. And, if it’s done right, smoothness. The 12k is a part of that for me. And it’s DOES cut fast. 5-10 passes and it’s done it’s job.

I've been at this over 5 years and I'm still leaning things about my Nani 12k.

Yep-Every honer should have the Nani 12 in his arsenal of rocks. To me it is the gateway to all the naturals, or just a great finisher itself depending on razor and skill of the honer.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Now put your thoughts to the 20k. Cost is a lot more and you use it a lot less. But that is keen!
Congrats on getting the 12k. It is a great finisher.

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oh boy, not quite yet!!

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Originally Posted by joelkerr

Shaving off of the 8k gave me decent shaves, although a bit harsh. Adding a coticule as a finisher was hit or miss, depending on the razor it seemed. A thuri finish gave me a nice smooth edge, but not matter the finisher, and even off the 8k, I found the edge was never quite keen enough - I often would need to skip or abbreviate the ATG pass, especially on my upper lip.

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Food for thought, but this is a bit of a red flag for me. 8K Is typically seen as the low bar for a comfortable shave. Which means unless your beard is very thick and made of tree trunks, it should be possible to get a close, clean, and comfortable 2 pass shave off the 8k. I would put some more focus at this level, you might be surprised how much your honing improves. I know I was when I put the naturals up for a bit and stopped looking beyond 8K for what I was missing.

Which isn't to imply that going beyond 8K is bad, far from it. But if you're not wringing everything you can out of that stone who knows what you're missing out on with the Thuri, or even the Naniwa 12K.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Food for thought, but this is a bit of a red flag for me. 8K Is typically seen as the low bar for a comfortable shave. Which means unless your beard is very thick and made of tree trunks, it should be possible to get a close, clean, and comfortable 2 pass shave off the 8k. I would put some more focus at this level, you might be surprised how much your honing improves. I know I was when I put the naturals up for a bit and stopped looking beyond 8K for what I was missing.

Which isn't to imply that going beyond 8K is bad, far from it. But if you're not wringing everything you can out of that stone who knows what you're missing out on with the Thuri, or even the Naniwa 12K.

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You're absolutely right, it's been a while since I concentrated on the 8k, it would almost certainly help to go back to it. The reason I moved on, however, is that even with blades that came back from professional honemeisters, I was not always able to complete a comfortable 3-pass BBS shave, and the ATG on the upper lip was always the most problematic part. That last little bit essentially serves as my personal litmus test as to whether or not I'm 100% satisfied with an edge.

With my own honing, I only moved on past the 8k when I was able to pretty consistently get what I would describe as a 2-pass DFS. But I'm one of those guys who is always chasing the BBS, hence the thuris and now the 12k.

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Originally Posted by joelkerr

You're absolutely right, it's been a while since I concentrated on the 8k, it would almost certainly help to go back to it. The reason I moved on, however, is that even with blades that came back from professional honemeisters, I was not always able to complete a comfortable 3-pass BBS shave, and the ATG on the upper lip was always the most problematic part. That last little bit essentially serves as my personal litmus test as to whether or not I'm 100% satisfied with an edge.

With my own honing, I only moved on past the 8k when I was able to pretty consistently get what I would describe as a 2-pass DFS. But I'm one of those guys who is always chasing the BBS, hence the thuris and now the 12k.

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Ah, gotcha. There's always the fact that different people's faces like different things as well. At 8K I can shave wtg, xtg, and atg anywhere I need to and moving on to a natural is just to make the shave more gentle on my skin. It's sensitive and even after nearly 5 years of straight shaving won't tolerate more than 2 passes.

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Originally Posted by joelkerr

You're absolutely right, it's been a while since I concentrated on the 8k, it would almost certainly help to go back to it. The reason I moved on, however, is that even with blades that came back from professional honemeisters, I was not always able to complete a comfortable 3-pass BBS shave, and the ATG on the upper lip was always the most problematic part. That last little bit essentially serves as my personal litmus test as to whether or not I'm 100% satisfied with an edge.

With my own honing, I only moved on past the 8k when I was able to pretty consistently get what I would describe as a 2-pass DFS. But I'm one of those guys who is always chasing the BBS, hence the thuris and now the 12k.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Ah, gotcha. There's always the fact that different people's faces like different things as well. At 8K I can shave wtg, xtg, and atg anywhere I need to and moving on to a natural is just to make the shave more gentle on my skin. It's sensitive and even after nearly 5 years of straight shaving won't tolerate more than 2 passes.

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Firstly, I don't think the average gent's face was made to handle more than a 2-pass shave without some level of irritation. Enough with the sensitive skin negativity. Simply admire all those tough-skinned dudes out there who manage 3-pass BBS shaves. I figure they've gotta be out there, but I have yet to meet one (BobH, as a mentor, doesn't count). :)

Oh, and for me, while I too was chasing the perfect edge over the years (4/8k -> 12k -> 20k), my BBS shaves really didn't arrive until my shaving skills and awareness of my growth patterns joined up equally. Especially my neck just behind the chin, I struggled get that area BBS due to sideways growth. A few years ago, I realized that I could shave sideways / ATG with my left/off hand starting clear over on the right side of my neck and scything my way leftward clear over to the left side of that portion of my neck. Sideways scything the neck?!? I am pretty certain I would've thought that stroke nearly impossible for me to accomplish during my first few years SR shaving.

Naniwa 12k seems the epitome of the good edge. JMO.

Things get sharp! Lower the spine! ;)

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Originally Posted by joelkerr

I almost took the plunge on an entry level Jnat, and had even chosen a vendor. But after discussing honing with the vendor, he told me I wasn't ready for a Jnat yet.

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I am curious, what makes one ready for a Jnat? According to the vendor of course.

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Originally Posted by alex1921

I am curious, what makes one ready for a Jnat? According to the vendor of course.

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I'm not sure, specifically, but I think it seemed obvious to him that I needed a lot more knowledge about Jnats first, as well as more experience with razor honing in general.

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Originally Posted by Speedster

Firstly, I don't think the average gent's face was made to handle more than a 2-pass shave without some level of irritation. Enough with the sensitive skin negativity. Simply admire all those tough-skinned dudes out there who manage 3-pass BBS shaves. I figure they've gotta be out there, but I have yet to meet one (BobH, as a mentor, doesn't count). :)

Oh, and for me, while I too was chasing the perfect edge over the years (4/8k -> 12k -> 20k), my BBS shaves really didn't arrive until my shaving skills and awareness of my growth patterns joined up equally. Especially my neck just behind the chin, I struggled get that area BBS due to sideways growth. A few years ago, I realized that I could shave sideways / ATG with my left/off hand starting clear over on the right side of my neck and scything my way leftward clear over to the left side of that portion of my neck. Sideways scything the neck?!? I am pretty certain I would've thought that stroke nearly impossible for me to accomplish during my first few years SR shaving.

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Wasn't meant to be negative! I was just illustrating the fact that different faces are, well...different. And sensitive skin is what led me to straight razors. One pass with some clean up spot-shaving leaves me with no in grown hair, no razor burn, and a closer shave than I ever got with any janky disposable razor. Believe me when I say I am %100 positive and happy with those results. And I can still do a 3 pass BBS for date night, I just have to give the face a few day's rest before it meets the blade again. :beer2:

And I agree, scything strokes can work miracles. I use them in several places when I'm trying to get a particularly close shave. There's a lot to be said for technique and experience whether we're talking about sharpening, stropping, or shaving. :tu

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Wasn't meant to be negative! I was just illustrating the fact that different faces are, well...different. And sensitive skin is what led me to straight razors. One pass with some clean up spot-shaving leaves me with no in grown hair, no razor burn, and a closer shave than I ever got with any janky disposable razor. Believe me when I say I am %100 positive and happy with those results. And I can still do a 3 pass BBS for date night, I just have to give the face a few day's rest before it meets the blade again. :beer2:

And I agree, scything strokes can work miracles. I use them in several places when I'm trying to get a particularly close shave. There's a lot to be said for technique and experience whether we're talking about sharpening, stropping, or shaving. :tu

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Yeah, just my poor attempt at humor, Marshal. Despite all these different faces, beards, etc., I still hold to my theory that most men have sensitive skin when it comes to their faces / shaving...which is why more should take up the SR. ;)

That was the reason I took up the straight, 30 some years ago. But I've put up all my synthetics but my 1000 Chosera, for Nats. Just as keen, but much smoother.

It really comes down to techniques, and mapping, IMO

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Originally Posted by outback

That was the reason I took up the straight, 30 some years ago. But I've put up all my synthetics but my 1000 Chosera, for Nats. Just as keen, but much smoother.

It really comes down to techniques, and mapping, IMO

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+1 My experience too as far as the honing part goes. After 3 passes the AS doesn’t even burn. Maybe it’s all scar tissue by now? :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by outback

That was the reason I took up the straight, 30 some years ago. But I've put up all my synthetics but my 1000 Chosera, for Nats. Just as keen, but much smoother.

It really comes down to techniques, and mapping, IMO

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Yes, synthetic hones can/do leave a harsh edge at times. I found that a good stropping on a felt hanging strop sprayed/pasted with Crox tames the harsh edge. So that could be an alternative too.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yes, synthetic hones can/do leave a harsh edge at times. I found that a good stropping on a felt hanging strop sprayed/pasted with Crox tames the harsh edge. So that could be an alternative too.

Bob

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Been there, done that, just not for me.
Don't even bother with Cr/Ox, anymore.

From hone to lead pasted strop, then lots of leather from 3 different strops. ( heavy to fast draw ). Like shaving with a marshmallow. YMMV

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Originally Posted by outback

Been there, done that, just not for me.
Don't even bother with Cr/Ox, anymore.

From hone to lead pasted strop, then lots of leather from 3 different strops. ( heavy to fast draw ). Like shaving with a marshmallow. YMMV

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Yup, more than one way to skin a cat. Each to their own as they say.

Bob

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Originally Posted by outback

Like shaving with a marshmallow. YMMV

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:rofl2: Accurate description. I will have to steal this.

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Originally Posted by Steel

:rofl2: Accurate description. I will have to steal this.

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The lead-pasted strop is the bomb. Smooth! I like leather as a medium, myself!

The Naniwia 12k Super Stone is a great finishing stone and will improve most edges, even naturals.

The problem with it, is the tendency to load up, so for the best edges, once you have the bevel you like, lap the stone to remove all the black load up and get a fresh cutting face.

To max out the stone, lightly joint the edge, strop 10 or so laps to remove the flashing, and do some lite finish laps, it should only take 15-20 laps to bring the edge back, it will be much straighter than before.

You must lap the stone to remove the swarf or you will be honing on the swarf, (bits of metal and slurry) on the stone face and preventing the bevel from touching all of the stone grit. This swarf can micro chip an edge, undoing your hard work.

To further Max out a 12k edge try adding a single layer of tape, I like Kapton tape, to create a micro bevel on a clean stone for your final laps, 2-4 only. Even a piece of scotch tape works, the shiny tape last longer than the matt transparent tape, but Kapton is best and last a long time.

I use the Polyamide, (Kapton) sold on eBay, a knock off, but only $3-5 a roll. Buy the 20mm/3/4 inch. I typically use Kapton over electrical tape for long wearing tape. The 2.5mil thickness makes a nice micro bevel.

Experiment with this stone, it has a wide range and can produce some very nice edges, micro bevels work better with some razors than others, experiment.

Here is an old post on the versatility of the 12k Super Stone. (12K Chip Removal/Bevel Setting)