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Not having this issue but it was a thought i was having while doing an HHT.
Is it possible to have such a fine straight edge that its no longer toothy enough to pass an HHT? Or would it be that if an edge being that level of fine it would still find the sections between the hair and still pop it off?
Calibrate the Hair
Use a new DE blade to calibrate the hairs you are using..
This gives you as close to a known quantity as you can get, keeping in mind the even on the same head all hair is NOT created equal :p
Guess that would give someone an idea. But ive seen close-up pick of DE blade edges that look scarry toothy. As I said. It was only a thought.
BTW, I bought some hair extensions for my testing. Works so much better than the stuff I got from my granddaughter.
I have a hard time with the HHT. Unless you calibrate it its useless.
My hair wont pass a HTT for love nor money, I even had a razor honed by Neil Miller and it wouldnt pass!
My wifes hair will pass a HHT101 or whatever number you want very easily.
I did an experiment with a razor that shaved nicely and tried a number of different hairs (My wifes a hairdresser) and concluded that everyones hair is different, even certain types of shampoo can make a difference, some contain silicone thst will coat the hair making it harder to cut.
Hair makes a big difference. When my daughter didn't color treat her hair I thought I was King Kong with the hht. After? The horror..... Lol.
Yep, so many variables with HHT it is useless unless you calibrate to yourself. Over the years, my HHT has become the very fine hairs on my outer fore-arm. When I can tree-top those with ease all along the edge, I've usually got a velvety-smooth shaving edge. YMMV is very much in play on these final pre-shave honing tests.
Most dedicated finishers aim to create the smoothest possible, toothless edge. And stropping on clean leather delivers a manifest improvement of the edge's ability to sever a hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
How finer the saw-tooth pattern, how keener the edge needs to be for the same cutting performance.
I believe the smoothest most toothless edge that's still keen and shaves well will pass the HHT, if it's "so fine" it won't pass a HHT I think the edge is ruined and has lost its keenness and won't deliver a good shave, nor a good HHT result.
So far I haven't found a finisher that delivers an edge that's too fine.
HHT was a bit of a fad in days past, but most found it is so fickle that it does not consistently reflect shaving ability.
Most of us, me included use it as a test (tree topping arm hair) during honing to insure we are continuing in the right direction across the whole edge, (does the toe or heel, need a bit more work?) and not a definitive edge test.
Your question about tooth, is probably valid. As butchers know well you can tailor an edge to the task and for cutting meat or skinning a toothy edge can be beneficial as opposed to a razor edge or folks would be skinning with straight razors. Scalpels are not that sharp, for cutting skin and tissue, skin is surprisingly tough.
One could easily test this theory, by creating a mirror bevel, laser straight edge with high grit .3um film, (about 60k grit) and sub-micron CBN or Diamond paste, up to .10 (200,000 grit) easily obtainable or finer to .005um 3.2 million grit, not so easily obtainable. Any thing over about 20k is near or mirror polish and very straight edge. An edge begins to get very straight at about 8k.
They will still cut my arm hair for me. But I will be damned if, I can tell the difference between a .10um CBN edge and a fine Jnat or Ark edge for cutting arm hair. Shaving is another matter, readily determined by smoothness of the skin, weepers and/or discomfort, for me. .25um is about the most my skin can handle.
What does matter is stropping. Try this yourself. You try an HHT and it does not pass, strop on linen and leather and it passes. Stropping on leather straightens the fin, the very thin edge, probably not removing much metal, stropping on linen depending on the linen can remove metal, microscopically and straighten the fin, but not like flatter, smoother leather.
Add to that different leather can vary in abrasive quality, depending on the leather, how tanned and cared for. There is a leather strop progression, but for the average guy whacking whiskers, is TMI.
What highly polished super straight edge produce are also super thin edges, that while they shave well for a while, shaving and stropping will cause the fin, the very edge to flex and break off causing Micro Chipping down the road.
Even a “mirror polished bevel has stria, and micro serrated edge, we just cannot see it at 400X. You can on an SEM.
Your mileage may vary…wildly but can be some fun for us edge obsessed.
To kind of put into perspective, I saw a video of a guy slicing a tomato with a Wooden knife. What does that say about those that swear about Tomato cut test, what would that shave like?
To me it says, he can cut tomatoes with his wooden knife. Yes, the tomato test can work for edge testing, but really it just means you can cut a tomato and or are headed in the right direction with sharpness.
What your question says, is you have stopped circling and are descending into the abyss…
Wooden knife video
Like @gssixgun advised use a DE blade to gage your HHT but I use an old badger shave brush for the hair instead of what’s in the hairbrush
descending into the abyss…
Yep, thats me. I got to quit thinking about these thing so deeply.
Its just sharpening, right? :rofl2:
Check your edge under a microscope after using anything coarser than human hair. You may get a shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jnatcat
"What your question says, is you have stopped circling and are descending into the abyss…"I feel so empty now.:D
Reminds me of the Neitzche quote: "If you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you."
-"I just wanted to hone razors, Dr.-really!"
-"Now try to stay calm, Mr. SRP man. You know we don't allow sharp objects in here. Maybe you can make something with the popsicle sticks during craft time."
I can concur to what the strop can do. None of my edges will pass the HHT till after a strop progression. I've calibrated on my wife's hair, my hair, and guard hairs from both of my cats. Mostly my wife's, and my gray hairs.
Once stroped, the hair only needs to touch the edge and it pops freely without bending the hair, nor any ringing from the blade.
As I've said before, the edge doesn't end on the hone,..... it stops at the strop. And yes, shampoos and conditioner's make a huge difference, as well as hair types. Its relative to why certain finishing hones work for some and not others. ( keen VS very keen )
Jerry knows what I mean, I've worked with him on finding his optimal edge for some time. Even sent him an edge that was, too keen. He didn't believe it was so, but does now.
HHT to me is just a test to the edge from its toe to heel, if I get the same results the entire length of the edge, then comes the shave test, the truest of tests.
JerryQuote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
For most men, the beard hairs are a lot more coarse than head hairs. As we age, our beards often become even more coarse. Thus, the hair from your granddaughter is likely to be too fine to be an accurate predictor of shave ready for your beard. Perhaps, the hair extension you purchased is coarser so it works better.
I do not do the HHT, but do an AHT. My arm hairs seem to be thicker than my head hair. However, even at that I need to get an edge sharp enough to pop arm hair about 1/2" above skin level in order to get a great shave. That is why everyone needs to calibrate their test method for their own beard.
Just some thoughts to add...
You need to always use the same hair - hair extensions are a good source of hair. It needs to be good quality and clean.
Root-in tests differently than root-out.
You can’t compare the sharpness of edges generated by different methods very well. That means you can’t tell if a jnat edge is sharper than a thuri edge is sharper than a coti edge is sharper than a DE edge (most of which are coated these days).
You can usually tell if the edge is improving with the same general kind of progression, say synthetic even of different brands.
I like to use HHT as a final bevel set test at 4-5k. I do a half strop, 10 canvas/20 leather and the hair should cut cleanly and easily all along the edge. You can test every mm.
Practice helps, just like any other test.
When I use an Arm Hair test to check an edge across the blade, it is a compass, a quick test to tell if I am headed in the right direction.
I also use, TPT, (Thumb Pad Test) and most telling for me, a visual test, a look at the stria on the bevel, does it match the grit, and that stria reach the edge fully, especially at the heel and toe. And then look straight down on the edge, for shiny reflections.
All tests are quick, and easy to perform, if an edge is passing all 3 tests, chances are it will shave just fine.
None of the test individually are conclusive, only the shave test is conclusive. It will shave well or very well. Occasionally I will go back to the strop or hones if I feel I can squeak a bit more from an edge.
I equate all test to a Dyno. All race cars go on the Dyno to fine tune the best performance from the motor. But the best performing motor does not always win the race. If the Dyno was definitive, there would be no need for the Race, the Dyno would be the arbiter.
The goal is the race, the Dyno is just a test. For us the goal is the shave, sharpness counts but absolute, maximum hair popping sharpness is not the goal. One can easily make an edge so sharp it will exfoliate a layer of skin and is uncomfortable.
But to answer your question, “Is it possible to have such a fine straight edge that its no longer toothy enough to pass an HHT?”
No, all grit will leave stria, it must, or it will not cut, and all stria will leave a “serrated” edge. A true HHT should be a push cut, not a slice. A very sharp blade should pop a hair, much like a knife pops a watermelon.
Sharp is easy, sharp and comfortable is difficult. It is said the difference between a good and great edge is about 2% more. In the abys is the 2% and each of us must find it, because we are all using different stones, razors, strops and technique. What works for me, may not reach the 2% for you.
Great replys.
I agree with about every comment. Glad to know my thoghts on this are on the rght track.
Marty-Have you ever been any kind of teacher? You have a way of boiling potentially confusing or complicated issues down to their bare essence that seems rare even in teachers. On any given topic, you seem to nail it in 1 post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Marty's a straight to the point, kinda guy. Don't beat around the bush, you only got time to do it right, not twice, the ugly truth, kinda guy. IMHO. :bow
A man after my own heart or +1, as they say. I have noticed on coticules, thuringians and jnats HHT before stropping= no go (or slow go) and after = effortless pass. For me, it is different with a synthetic edge. I can pass before and after stropping. It leads me to believe that the shape of an edge from a natural is different at the apex then a synthetic but that is just MY theory. Plus, as was said above, HHT root in is different then HHT root out. Much different!Quote:
Originally Posted by outback
I like and use the HHT, you need to calibrate your results of the test with the shave.
I have never gotten a good shave from a blade that failed my HHT, not even close.
Here is my best HHT ever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Leiv2u6HQjM
Never could get the HHT to work so don't use it and manage to shave anyway. OTH if it works for you why not use it.
Bob
I also use the HHT; and the TPT and TNT for that matter; all works perfect when knowing what to look for.
When I first started honing I was dumbfounded, but experience and knowing what things should feel like is key.
Root in or out matters and changes the variables. Root hanging outwards is easier to cut and vice versa.
If I feel really good about my honing and stropping I like to find the thinnest and lightest hair possible in the brushes in our house and it will pass the HHT with the root in hand, end hanging out.
I use my the thumbnail test, thumb-pad test, arm shaving test and hanging hair test in my honing routines when starting from scratch.
It's not that hard, it just takes some practice.
I've calibrated it for my use and before stropping I get an excellent HHT result already coming right off of my finishing stone.
On the other end if experience is lacking or you're not paying close attention, a good HHT doesn't mean the shave will be good; it just means it passes the HHT.
I've also had many razors do well on the HHT but give a shave I don't like; at least you know your bevel is truly set if it passes :p
@Doc226
That HHT is very impressive!
Ive never gotten those kind of results. Most the time the hair flexes and the edge grips the hair before it pops off. Looks like I have a long way to go.
Anyone else have a vid on there HHT? The hair used would make a big difference. Im going to blame the hair for now. :rofl2:
Spent what seemed like endless amounts of time trying to get any razor to pass a HHT when first starting out.. Just gave up and with that my mental frustration was also gone. Moved on
to a quick thumb pad to an actual stroke on my face. Honing/finishing became so much easier and enjoyable... Now once i have set the bevel rarely use any test until i actually shave with the blade.. On a rare occasion i have had to take the blade back to a stone but very, very rare... I think we as newbies tend to read and think there is a strict code of progression that we forget that it is just steel against stone, natural or otherwise.. It isnt rocket science... Get the bevel set right and every test beyond that to application on face is subvective... Peace!
Hi all,
have taken a video of HHT on my Filarmonica 14 with Trans-Arkie finish on it for another Forum but would also like to share it here:
https://youtu.be/wjp_Ht3sVzU
Regards
Philipp
Very nice. Guessing that is an HHT5
HHT 5 like that isn’t that difficult depending on the hair of course, but everything has to be right. The bevel has to be perfectly set and developed to finish, your technique, the finisher, and the razor all need to be good. If any one of these get off a little, it’s difficult if not impossible. For example, if you have everything perfect but the razor is not so great, you might get HHT 5 with a better-than-good stone. That’s why a Gold Dollar is in my stone testing routine. If I can get Alfredo’s HHT 5 on a Gold Dollar, that usually means that the stone is going to be very good. If more than one of those traits is off, you probably won’t get HHT 5 like that.
As usual BobH made the comment I would have made. Personally, I gave up on all edge tests except shaving a few years ago. I use the same test for my SRs that I use for DE blades: when I can't get a good comfortable shave I work on my SR edge or change my DE blade.
This thread made me wonder what our grandfathers or great grandfathers who shaved with SRs every day would think of it. They probably had one or two razors, probably a Barber's Hone and a strop. Do you think they discussed stria or other esoterica that we do? And they shaved almost every day. Just a little something to think about.:shrug:
I actually have thought about it, but I came to a somewhat different conclusion about my/our ancestors, so here’s a different opinion. Just because they shaved doesn’t mean they shaved well, or were even interested in shaving well. My dad exited the bathroom many times with a face that looked like hamburger for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroldg48
SRP and other wet shaving forums are enthusiast forums. Most people who wet shave are not on forums. We are because (I hope) we are interested in how things work and how good we can be. There’s nothing wrong with that and we are a small minority.
My uncle was a machinist and ‘good enough’ was not good enough for him. I look at the Wolfman DE razors and they’re gorgeous, and I’ve never had one in hand. The maker doesn't need to be that good to make shaving tools. In spite of their price, I know that he isn’t getting rich. He does it because he likes to do it and wants to do the best that he can. Like us.
I understand we’re enthusiasts, but my dad and grandad were always pristinely groomed and good enough wasn’t good enough.
I wasn’t being argumentative, just suggesting tests are tests and shaving is shaving. Interesting conversations on SRP....that’s why I’ve been here for a while. Just trying to make people reflect on what the end goal is....shaving.
I agree sir, interesting discussions for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Thanks for the feedback.
I do have several locks of different hairs. The hair used here is from the thinnest and most difficult one to get a good HHT with.
I think you are right, the razor must be more than just good, I did get this result with my ERN (good shaver but I has a softer steel compared to Fili double temple) but it’s edge seemed to has fallen apart during the first shave. It has startet absolutely smooth and close but already during the second pass (I do shave only with two passes) it has started feeling harsh. Next shave i have stopped in between.
Fili with this edge shaved just phenomenal, absolutely smooth and effortless.
Interesting thing is HHT does always tel me if the edge is keen but almost never tells me if the shave is going to be butter-smooth.
My Tennis 5/8 can give the same HHT results as my Fili and also can hold this edge for long time but it’s always giving a shave on a crisp side...
Maybe I need to pay more attention to „how exactly the edge cuts the hair“...
P.S. I am quite certain would my grandpa see what I am doing with my razor and my hones, with finishing under running water, putting dish soap, clycerine or balistoil on the stone and so on he would cal me crazy. But hey, to me it’s not just shaving, it‘s hobby! So going crazy with it is fine I guess 😁
This is where I have a problem, also. I normally use the hair from my wife's hairbrush. If she uses hair conditioner, the hair will slide over the edge if though the edge was dulled on the edge of a glass. So my own hair is my second choice, a real PITA, since mine is only an inch long.Quote:
Originally Posted by markbignosekelly
I used the arm hair test...Quote:
Originally Posted by outback
Until I ran out of arm hair
I‘ve asked our house barber to give me a bundle of hairs of my Daughters and wife's once she has cut their hairs.
So I have now different bundles of washed hairs which I can use for HHT for the rest of my life :)
The most thinnest hairs used in my video are from my youngest princess, they the most hard to achieve acceptable HHT results.
Regards
Philipp
Mike, hair used for HHT needs to be clean and unconditioned for the reasons you mention. Hair extensions are a good way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by outback
I have some samples if you’d like some.
It's the non soluble silicones that some companies use to make the hair feel thicker with more volume, blah, blah etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by outback
If you look at the rubbish they put In some shampoos and conditioners it's no wonder it affects the HTT.
Thaks for the offer, bro. But I've been at it long enough to know what's right n wrong in my test's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56