Looking at the edge

The boss found a straight razor I'd forgotten I had while rooting around some boxes from our move a year ago. It was an old Torrey with devils spit on the blade and an edge that needed resetting. The edge condition was determined by looking through an old Leitz 5cm enlarger loupe that appeared to offer about 10x magnification, at a guess, under a bright led light source.

I gave it a quick cleaning and polished the blade with metal polish. That greatly improved the overall appearance of the razor but did not quite remove the light devils spit from the blade. I reset the bevel on a 1K Naniwa Super Stone and finished up on a 12K Naniwa Super Stone. Examining the edge after all that revealed a couple of very tiny barely visible micro chips on the edge/apex of the blade.

I have had razors that were shaving perfectly fine for me that when I examined the edge on a whim showed similar very tiny barely visible micro chips too. That being the case I decided to just carry on stropping before use. I gave the blade 40 laps on English linen, 20 laps on a Crox sprayed felt hanging strop and finished with 80 laps on leather. This morning the end result was a smooth comfortable 4 pass shave as good as any other razors I have those very tiny barely visible micro chips be damned.

After all that the question is how perfect does an edge have to be to perform well shaving? For me the answer is perfection is preferred but not absolutely required to nth degree. I am sure someone looking at that edge under very high magnification would have been just horrified to use it.

Bob

I find if there is a couple tiny micro chips and they are spread apart by 1/4 of the length of the edge then i will let them fly for a test shave. I used to go back to the stones if i found even one. What counts is what you feel in the end. IMO.

yeah, that's why i quite using a usb microscope.

^^ Exactly. A while back I read somewhere here that too much magnification may wind up being a liability on the hones. Even using a 10x loupe, I sometimes find it difficult to determine when a micro-chip is worth bothering to fix or not.

I think it depends on your shaving style. Some guys don't need super smooth and sharp.
I would not shave with microchips even USB microchips, that way I get no sting or weepers.
Saying that, synthetic stones are more likely to chip an edge, maybe.

In the pursuit of the perfect shave, I have knocked those off with a light pass on my thumb nail, and a few more passes on the finish hone, to get back a smooth and fine edge. Over time, I too have experimented with what still shaves. It appears to me that most often the micro chipping shows up when I am starting to push the edge too far. The difference for me, is that if I leave the microchip, the edge appears to have a shortened life, as in I don’t seem to get that many shaves before it starts to tug. I am not scientific and do not keep crazy detailed records, but that is what it looks like.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

In the pursuit of the perfect shave, I have knocked those off with a light pass on my thumb nail, and a few more passes on the finish hone, to get back a smooth and fine edge. Over time, I too have experimented with what still shaves. It appears to me that most often the micro chipping shows up when I am starting to push the edge too far. The difference for me, is that if I leave the microchip, the edge appears to have a shortened life, as in I don’t seem to get that many shaves before it starts to tug. I am not scientific and do not keep crazy detailed records, but that is what it looks like.

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When I said very tiny barely visible micro chip that was from the devil's spit working out to the edge not from pushing the edge too far.

Bob

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I think it depends on your shaving style. Some guys don't need super smooth and sharp.
I would not shave with microchips even USB microchips, that way I get no sting or weepers.
Saying that, synthetic stones are more likely to chip an edge, maybe.

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Yup everyone is different in what their requirements are. That edge was smooth enough to go 4 passes without any discomfort.

Then you are getting into how much sharpness and how much smoothness you need. There again I think it is personal preference. Me, I prefer smoothness over hype sharpness which I find can be a bit on the harsh feeling side.

I definitely feel that a beginner to honing can handicap themselves by using a USB microscope before they can get good shaving edges using a loupe. After that you have the knowledge to interpret what you are seeing and to make use of what a USB microscope is telling you without driving yourself nuts.

Bob

Not as perfect as you would think. In normal honing, if I can't see a flaw with a 7 diopter Optivisor and a bright light, I don't worry about it.The Olympus metallurgical microscope is for research.

With enough magnification they all have serrations, and I live by the same thing you mentioned Bob, high magnification will not aid your honing, it will reveal all the imperfections of your razor to make you crazy. Honing doesn’t need to be done at that level, smooth and sharp has a lot of imperfections under a microscope, and I demand a smooth sharp razor, yet it gets there with my 12k and leather

Man, this thread has been disappointing. I thought I'd roll a grenade into the room and see who screams with this post. Apparently the post was not all that outrageous after all. :angel: ;)

Bob

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

With enough magnification they all have serrations, and I live by the same thing you mentioned Bob, high magnification will not aid your honing, it will reveal all the imperfections of your razor to make you crazy. Honing doesn’t need to be done at that level, smooth and sharp has a lot of imperfections under a microscope, and I demand a smooth sharp razor, yet it gets there with my 12k and leather

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I have noticed the same thing and you put it very well. Perfect is preferred but often times unnecessary. The only thing I need is a smooth comfortable shave that results in faceturbating. Carry on.

I looked at an edge under 1000 magnification.

You would not think it would cut anything!

You have to keep the size of the “chip” in perspective, depending on your magnification. Next time you see a micro chip, pluck a hair and lay it next to the chip to see how large the chip really is.

I too remove all microchips. It is true that you can thin an edge so much that it will fail early on, So, the steel plays a big part.

While one could shave with a microchip, the chip is a source of further failure, and will only get larger as the steel flexes, stropping. A chip is a chip and chipped for a reason.

When there is rust on a razor, especially at the bevel, the steel is always suspect and susceptible to crumbling, if so you will have to remove some steel to get to good solid steel, joint the edge and re-set it in about 20 laps.

There is Shaving and there is SHAVING

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

You have to keep the size of the “chip” in perspective, depending on your magnification. Next time you see a micro chip, pluck a hair and lay it next to the chip to see how large the chip really is.

I too remove all microchips. It is true that you can thin an edge so much that it will fail early on, So, the steel plays a big part.

While one could shave with a microchip, the chip is a source of further failure, and will only get larger as the steel flexes, stropping. A chip is a chip and chipped for a reason.

When there is rust on a razor, especially at the bevel, the steel is always suspect and susceptible to crumbling, if so you will have to remove some steel to get to good solid steel, joint the edge and re-set it in about 20 laps.

There is Shaving and there is SHAVING

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Can't argue that one bit. OTH it gave me my usual 4 pass shave without discomfort as well as any other blade I have. So, for me it is SHAVING. ;)

Bob

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=71C9RVNZV0A

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Originally Posted by BobH

Can't argue that one bit. OTH it gave me my usual 4 pass shave without discomfort as well as any other blade I have. So, for me it is SHAVING. ;)

Bob

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Here is some perspective. These photos are a part of a stropping wear study. The initial edge is from a Shinden Asagi. That hone was chosen because the serrations and striations of the kasumi finish make it easier to see the effects of the stropping. At first glance, it looks pretty rough.

Attachment 313603

But, if you compare it with what you are trying to cut, things make a lot more sense.

Attachment 313604

This is one of my chin whiskers at the same magnification.

As I mentioned earlier, all this is for research. If you don't understand what is going on, it will drive you nuts. In daily use, an Optivisor or loupe is just fine.

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Originally Posted by Tim Zowada

Not as perfect as you would think. In normal honing, if I can't see a flaw with a 7 diopter Optivisor and a bright light, I don't worry about it.The Olympus metallurgical microscope is for research.

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My best loupe is a 7x Hastings triplet.

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Originally Posted by Tim Zowada

Not as perfect as you would think. In normal honing, if I can't see a flaw with a 7 diopter Optivisor and a bright light, I don't worry about it.The Olympus metallurgical microscope is for research.

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I hope anyone reading this thread realizes that a diopter value of 7 equates to a magnification power of 2.75X. Far less than a 10X loupe.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...vt=0&eim=1,2,6

Bob

I use a 30x loupe, but I don’t really understand why I am seeing anyway :cry:

I have another question guy’s sigh.

What is Devils Spit?

Steve

There are numerous definitions and pics listed when you type
Devil spit
In the search box

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Originally Posted by rolodave

There are numerous definitions and pics listed when you type
Devil spit
In the search box

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Yea, are so.

Bob

Devil’s spit is a rust line that looks like liquid has run down in a line and corroded the steel.