Learning when to move to the next hone

I'm still learning to consistently get good edges and last night I found something that helped.

I shaved with a couple of my earlier razors last weekend and felt I could get a better edge (I've been comparing to boushie's edges). I grabbed the two, taped up, and started honing both. I've never worked on more than one at time. I decided to stay on the same stone with both razors until I was ready to move up. I'm sometimes not sure if I've gotten all the previous stones striations out and haven't got that fixed mental image of what 1k or 4k look like (especially when they're mixed together). It really helped having a reference right next to me. I'd look at the first razor I had on the 4K and then check the second that only had 1K striations. When I was working on the second I'd check the first. Same for the 8K. It really helped me identify if there were still remnants of the previous stone on the edge.

Full disclosure: I haven't finished with them yet, so I don't know if it will get me better edges, but I felt much more confident about going to the next stone.

I haven't seen this suggested and thought I'd throw it out there in case someone else could benefit. If this is something routinely posted, feel free to flog me for poor use of the advanced search. :D

I run anywhere from 100 strokes on each side of the blade on the 6k water stone. Constantly checking with loupe for nick's and scratches. When I see the bevel is evenly polished on both sides and looking at edge no reflection then I move on. Sometimes I do as many as 300 strokes. Each razor is different. I also clean my stone with a small slurry stone every 50 strokes,

Hope this helps.

That does help. Good to know 300 is not some crazy high number.

When to move on? Put it this way. You should be able to shave with it after every ston starting at the 1000 grit. That’s a good test. We did it years ago. And if you can’t get a comfortable shave from 6 k and 8 k then it’s not time to move on. Even the 2 k will give a fair shave if done properly.

+1 to that, Tc. As I've said before, I shaved off a single hone of around 1or2000 grt. for many o year, before knowing there were other/better hones for straights. Its all I had, and no internet to know any difference. I just learned how to max out my rock, to obtain the best possible edge from it. The rest was done with a pasted strop, or I should say...an old leather belt that I'd grown out of.

The shaves weren't as comfortable as what I get now, with the proper hones, but I was able to shave this way. So if you really want to test your abilities, try the 1000 & 8000 shave challenge, it'll surprise you.!

But I do like how your going at this, this is why we push new guys to make sure that their razors have been honed by someone reputable.

Synthetics i have a rough number of laps per grit which differs for different grinds.
Natural stones i hone by swarf colour.

There is no quick answer to your dilemma, i just typed out n deleted a few. A mentor in person would be a massive help

I hope this helps.

It is a really hard question to answer because of all the Variables, I think your idea has merit, in fact, a pretty smart workaround to a common issue

Obviously there is the issue that you don't shave with a pretty bevel you shave with the edge :D as long as you are relating what you see with what you feel I think you are moving forward

I have to agree with many of the above statements about learning to hone using the 1k 4k 8k shave challenges.

This system REALLY helps you learn what each of your hones brings to the table

I coined this years ago

90% of honing is at the Bevel set (1k)
9% is in the Sharpening stage (4k-8k)
1% is in the Finish it also happens to be what we argue about the most and spend the most money on :D

Of this, I have no doubt because it has been proved many times on here, "If you can get a surprisingly good shave from the Bevel Set after 20 laps on plain leather your honing issues will become very few" :P

Thanks for all your responses.

I've done the 8K challenge and got good shaves. I'd be happy with it, but as outback said, now I know there's better.

I've seen you post about shaving off the 4K and 1K and haven't done it. Probably because I'm chicken. :D But doing the 8K challenge really improved my honing so I'll suck it up and give it a go. I can man up and take at least one pass :eek:. I've got a near wedge that I'm close to finishing so I'll try with that and then try with a hollow I'm looking at for my next project.

I'm currently using a King 1K, Norton 4K/8K, and a burnished black ark. I follow with canvas and veg tanned cowhide on a paddle strop I made. I recently added the black ark and know I haven't mastered it. It does seem to improve the edge though, so I'll keep working with it. I played with pasted strops for a bit, but it just seemed to complicate things so I dropped them.

Never move up to a new hone until all of the scratches from the previous hone have been removed by the current hone and replaced with its own scratches/stria.

The number of strokes required to do this will vary. If you are making large jumps in grit level (for example 1K to 6 K) it is going to take a very long time for the 6K to remove the 1K scratches. I have a full set of Naniwa superstones and move up only one level at a time: 1K, 2K, 3K, 5K, 8K, 10K. Since I am never making large jumps in grit level, it does not take long for each stone to remove the previous scratches.

Ideally, it would be good to double the grit level each time: 1K, 2K, 4K, 8K, 16K, 30K. Shapton glass is one of the few series that exists at those steps..

BTW: Although I have a Naniwa 12K, I do not particularly like using it. I normally go from the 10K level to either natural finishers or to a Shapton 16K followed by a Suehiro G20K.

If you can’t distinguish a 1k stria from a 4k, you probably need more magnification. When learning to hone, higher magnification really helps you understand what is happening to the edge and see the effects of what you are doing and more importantly what you are not doing, (honing to the edge). As you get more experience you will need to rely on magnification less, good light though is always helpful.

A 60/100 lighted hand-held Carson Micro Bright is $10-15.

On a clean freshly lapped 1k, do 10-15 final laps in a 45-degree angle. The angled stria will be easy to distinguish from the 4k.

Start the 3 or 4k laps with circles with slurry, do sets of 10 circles on each side, until all the angled 1k stria are removed. Then do straight or X strokes. If you still see angled 1k stria, do more circles.

If you do stay on one side too long you will make a burr, which can cause edge chipping issues. If you make a burr or have chipping, just cut the edge off by jointing the edge, lightly running the edge on the top corner of the stone. You will feel the chips on the corner of the stone. 1-2 lite strokes are all you need. 15-20 laps will reset the bevel easily and quickly.

Once the bevels are flat and at the correct angle, it is easy to get them to meet again with just a few laps.

I joint the edge at the end of each stone, especially the 1k and quickly reset it before moving up to the next stone. I also strop on a flax firehose strop, any linen will work to remove any flashing and straighten the edge for the next stone. Your edge should be grabbing arm hair at each stage.

As said 90% of honing is done at the bevel set and 90% of honing issues are from a lack of a fully set bevel at the 1k.

Everything after that is just polishing. Try Jointing the edge it will solve a lot of your honing issues and make a stronger edge, as will stropping on linen between each stone, 10-20 laps are all you need.

RayClem: I've thought about getting something between the 1K and 4K, but it seemed most go without. I'll look into it a little more seriously.

Euclid440: Funny you should mention higher magnification. I picked up a new magnifier around a month ago. It's a little higher mag that what I'd been using and has much better resolution. It's helped quite a bit. I like the idea of changing the striae angle on the last few strokes, it should make it easier to see when their gone. Circles...I'm horrible at circles with a razor. I've used circles to set a burr on knives for multiple decades. I've tried circles a couple of times with a razor and I lift the spine like crazy. I'm not sure I can fight that much muscle memory.:D

I've got one of the blades sorted out. When I was getting to a polish on the 8K I noticed what looked like micro chipping. I did two really light swipes on the edge of my 4K and brought it back up. It's ready for a test shave and I'm cautiously optimistic.

The second is fighting a little more. It was looking good so I took it to my strop. Looked good after the canvas, but after 50 or so laps on the leather I saw an area that looked like the edge had rolled. The canvas made it "disappear" and it came back with the leather. I'm thinking I've got a bit of a wire edge :shrug:. My plan is to joint the edge on the 4K and work back up. I took a couple of microscope pics just because I'm not sure what's going on. They are both at about 40X.

The bevel with the damaged area
Attachment 313988

Same area looking straight down on the edge
Attachment 313987

I use 40 power mag. That whole edge looks chippy to me.

I will let others comment on that.

I used to quit looking at the edge after the first couple of stones. Then I had a blade that started to chip above 8000. Now, I check the edge after every stone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rolodave

That whole edge looks chippy to me.

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I agree, saw several little chipped looking areas while I was getting the pics. I sort of ignored it as I figure jointing the edge will get that also. I was mostly curious about what was going on with the "rolled" area.

I've been checking the edge every 50 laps as a learning exercise. I'll keep checking on each stone but probably reduce the frequency as I get better.

Circles remove metal faster because of multi directional grinding and faster with slurry.

That looks like impact damage that was not fully removed at bevel set. Impact damage goes deeper than the chip. The steel is weak below the chip, so if you remove the chip and strop, the edge flexes and another chip appears at that weak spot.

Joint it and re set on the 1k, mark that spot with a sharpie line from the chip to the spine, so you can easily find it and ensure it is fully removed.

If you find a large issue you can try to get it with the 4k, but it almost always is wiser, to bite the bullet and drop back to the 1k and ensure the bevel is fully set.

Another thing to look at is at every chip on the edge, you can see a deep white line going from the chip up to the spine.

If you did not have the failed area, (the width is more troubling than the depth), you could try just removing all the deep 1k stria and see if that improved the edge.

You could joint the edge and try some circles with slurry and a bit of pressure, then lighter straight or X strokes to set an even 4k stria pattern. After a clean, fresh quick lapped stone the edge should get pretty straight, after 8k, very straight.

But with that edge I would go back to the 1k.

Yep, you predicted it. Back to 1K it is. I tried the 4K joint, did about 50 laps and really didn't like where it was headed. I've jointed twice on the 1K and am determined to work this out. I will get this...:mace:

Thanks for the explanation about the dent, makes sense. Hadn't considered deformation below the surface.

I get why circles take metal off faster, but I seriously suck at it. I can do it with two hands on a straight edge, but anything with a smile and I'll just make it worse. I've got a likely dead blade I was going to post about to make sure it is truly dead. If it is I'll use it for circle practice.

Oh, and after the 2nd jointing, it looks like I've got the problem spots on the run.

Ok, I think I've got it ready for 4K. No chips, looks nice and smooth, bevel has evened out, feels good on the thumb, and it's grabbing hairs and popping a couple.

Thanks for all your help, I'll let you know the outcome.

Here is an old thread where the honer took micrographs of the bevels at all steps in his honing process.

The photos show what the stria and the edge should look like at each stone.

Post 51 the first photo shows what a fully set bevel looks like, looking straight down on the edge.
Post 42 edge pics show an almost set edge, note the shiny reflections.
Note the even stria pattern at each grit, once the bevel is fully set, then it is just a matter of removing each stones grit with the next stone in the progression.

(My second try at honing,)

Test shave report: Used one on each side of my face and...meh. Improved but still not there. They were still a little tuggy and the shave wasn't that close. Not uncomfortable and no sting with the aftershave so I'm not fully disappointed. Both edges felt pretty similar so I'm counting that as a success.

I think I'll revisit these after I do the 1K/4K challenge.

Just bumping your fingernail can cause a ding like in that edge & going back to 1k was good idea. A simple wire edge however, can always be removed on the next stone in a few strokes.