Adventures in Magnification / Honing Feedback / What's Wrong with the 12K?

My wife purchased a USB microscope for our 6 year old. He has expressed no interest. His dad however has taken it over. Not exactly what link she followed, but she said it was $30 on Amazon, and while it is a little crude, I must saw overall I'm impressed. I took the opportunity to examine some razors, including a F. Beckhar Solingen import I purchased off E-Bay sometime back. It's a 13/16 full hollow, shaves incredibly well when on point but I've found the edge degrades rather quickly. It's a solid performer for maybe a half dozen shaves then starts tugging prematurely.

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The last honing session on it was using a Kiita self slurry. Initial photos are kind of blurry... when I took a look I didn't like the fine edge alignment, it looked a little "wavy" to me with some microchips. I'd estimate these are roughly 100x magnification.

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I took it to my Shapton 5K. Initially I was shocked to see the edge abrade away in some areas (I didn't take photos). I kept at the 5K for awhile until the microchips were worked out. I started upping the magnification during these photos, they start at 100x and I'm probably 150x by the final one. Note: I do not typically strop between levels, all of these are cleaning the blade between without stropping (until the final set).

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Next I went to my S8000 Superstone. One of my favorite stones, it cuts quickly and polishes well. Only downside is it's a little soft, which makes it unsuitable for kitchen knives but it works a treat for razors.

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Then I finished on my 12K Superstone. I have never liked this particular stone. Both it and my 8K superstone are "shrimp mark" stones, although the 8K is a Japanese domestic market stone attached to the stand. The 12K is a bare white stone and an export market version. My dissatisfaction with the 12K is what led me to start down the JNat rabbithole. I haven't used it in a long time. When I started honing on it for this sesion, it felt "scratchy". I worked it some with an Atoma 1200# and the scratchy feeling went away (mostly).

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To me it looks like stria is returning at the 12K level, and the very edge is starting to roughen out...

I gave it a good stropping next, 40 laps on linen and 50 on leather.

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Shave this morning was pretty good. I'd rate it a solid B+. Not a laser edge, but gave a very good two pass shave with no weepers. Maybe a little tugging at the heel when going ATG near the upper lip.

Looking for thoughts, feedback from anyone out there. I may try going back to the 8K, and stropping and shaving off of that to see if there's a difference between it and the 12K.

I see some pits at the beginning and your microchips look more like pitting chips in places. Easily rectified though and i think you got them.

It looks to me like your edge is ragged throughout the process and that tells me you are doing too much work.. If i was you i would set the bevel 1k gently and not to do too much work checking for chips under the scope..
Then just work with a thin Kiita slurry...
Your bevel is fine and delicate which requires very little work..

Yes, chippy edge. Those scales are notorious for Cell Rot, it usually begins by eating the edge.

Your second and third photos show pitting on the bevel and edge, also some deep stria that was not removed.

You may get lucky and remove enough to get down to solid steel, that will not crumble. It also looks like you are not honing to the edge. If you use too much pressure, the blade will flex, and the back of the bevel becomes a fulcrum and microscopically lifts the edge off the stone.

Joint the edge and reset it on the 1k, make sure you get a chip free edge and are past any pitting.

I too do not like the Super Stones for the same reasons and that they load up easily. Though they are capable of producing a stellar edge. If you allow the stone to load up and try to finish on it, it can chip the edge.

If you lap the stone prior to doing your finish laps and use lite pressure you can get better results. I always lap my stones prior to doing the finishing laps on each stone in a synthetic progression.

The bottom line for your razor is probably early stages of Cell Rot You can possibly hone past it and joint the edge clean. Keep an eye on it and if need be remove the scales. A shame as they are gorgeous.

I picked up a nice Gold Edge Duck yesterday, with the same issue.

Watch your pressure.

Also, as an aside, your Kita bevel looks like it could be refined more. Working the slurry with the razor, more laps, as Joseph suggested or using a hard tomo and working that well, with the tomo and thinning to produce a much finer slurry, finish and edge.

Now that you have access to high magnification, you can learn a lot about slurry, your stone and technique.

Nice pics, from that USB scope.

Thank you for the suggestions!

Killed the edge, then reset bevel and went through the progression again.

After killing the edge.

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After the 1.5K bevel set.

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After the 5K.

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After the 8K

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And finally after the 12K

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I attempted this time to use a very light touch. I can see in some areas I've still got underlying stria... probably meaning I need more time at the 5K level.

Edge looks less chippy to me, although it's still there a little in some areas. Heel needs some more work... this blade has a very thin bevel and getting the heel all the way means a fair amount of rolling strokes.

Shave test tomorrow.

Post photos of the blade, both sides. Still seeing pitting on the bevel, (dark dots) and not honing to the edge fully or the steel is not holding the edge.

Yes, more time on the 5k will clean up the deep bevel set stria and make polishing easier. Try adding another layer of tape at the 8k to see of that increased angle hones to the edge.

You may have to joint the edge and reset multiple times to get to a good edge. Jointing is not killing and re-setting on 1k.

A single lite stroke on the corner of the stone and reset the edge in 10-20 laps. You cut off the very edge on the stone and any flashing/burr, so you have a straight edge, but the bevels are not meeting.

After jointing, if you look straight down on the edge, and see dark spots, that is pitting or chipping.

On cell rot razors, it can go deep, it is concerning because you have pitting on the bevel (dark dots) and belly of the razor (rust spider webs). Some will just not take an edge.

Yes, believe I jointed... I pulled the edge of the blade along the corner of the stone gently. Oh but you mean don't go back to the bevel setter, but stay on a 5K/8K?

Photos of the blade... would be a shame to lose her. A great full hollow Solingen. You can see the very thin bevel in the first photo. The stains/pits are not nearly as visible to the naked eye, more prominent in the photos. Shave this morning was not quite an A (only "A's" I've ever experienced off synthetics were honed by Obie), but certainly a very passable B++.

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Yes, when you joint the edge, the bevels are already flat and in the correct plane, you just need to get the very edge to meet again, the 8k will easily do that in a few laps.

It may be that blade has some twist or warp, but a hollow ground blade of that width will flex easily. It does not take much to lift the edge off the stone.

It also looks like it has been honed on the rear stabilizer, hard to say from the photos (first photo). But for some extra insurance, start your tape about a ¼ inch above the front stabilizer. This will lift the spine above the stabilizer on the stone, should you slip down over it. You will feel it if you hit the stabilizer on the stone.

Honing on the stabilizer lifts the heel half of the blade off the stone. If you tape the spine over the stabilizer and you hone on it, you compound the problem, because of the added thickness of the tape.

You should be able to get a nice edge on it, just watch your pressure and do not hone over the stabilizer.

Got it, thank you my friend.

I do not believe there is warp in it... she seems very very flat (although very thin... I tried to capture in the photo but it keeps focusing on my hand). The honing to the stabilizer is likely from my exaggerated rolling strokes when I start each level. Maybe that's causing the chipping... I always tape in front (towards the toe) of the stabilizer, never on it to prevent what you describe.

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To check for warp or twist, Lay the blade on a stone and see if it wobbles. If not try slipping a small strip of paper under the blade at the heel, middle and toe. Do the same for the spine.

Most razors have a bit of warp, it is not a big deal, just use an X stroke for your finishing strokes and the varying pressure will compensate for the warp on both sides. Just watch the pressure, really all you have to do is think about the pressure shift from the heel to the toe as you swoop the toe to the bottom corner of the stone.

If your toe needs a little more, pretty common especially at the very tip. Ink the edge at the tip and do a lite, slow X stroke on an 8k or higher, with the heel lifted about a 1/8th inch off the stone.

Look at the tip and adjust the lift until you are making full contact with the stone and honing to the edge. With this method you can also hone a bit of the toe corner, so the top edge of the tip is fully honed. Very useful for those single hairs under the nose or a bit in the nostril.

Ink is your friend; I like red it is easier to see without magnification.

One last thing to check, make sure your stone has the edges beveled or rounded. Run your fingernail on the stone corner, if it is sharp or you feel a chip, that can snag you edge as the razor heel comes off the stone and the edge slides over the corner. It is the last part of the stone to touch your edge and can easily muck it up.

I make a 45-degree bevel then break those corners in a rounding stroke with a diamond plate. Then when you refresh the face, a couple quick swipes keep the corners away from the face.

All I want to say is nice photos! :D