Want to get my edges correct.

Hi guys,

Today I took a real leap of faith and set the bevel on my first and best razor, a Dovo Astrale with Ebony scales and my initials engraved on it. I did a complete progression from 1K 4k/8K Norton's and a 12K Naniwa SS. If I ruin this razor I swear I will go get a Phillips Electric.

My Dovo did not need the bevel set, in fact it didn't even need refreshing but what can i say. Nobody ever told me that intelligence was a prerequisite for being a straight razor shaver.

The razor

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I added 1 layer of electrical tape and one layer of kapton.

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I painted the edge with a red sharpie.

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I set the bevel on 1K but notice that there is what looks like the remains of a wider edge which must have been done without tape before i bought it.

1K bevel set

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4K edge

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8K edge

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12K Naniwa SS

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I'm hoping that my honing will pass muster. I don't intend to hone anything but my own razors and don't need to have pro edges, so be gentle with me.

My Dovo tree tops stomach hair because my arms are bald now.

I am so happy that i didn't ruin my best razor.

All that matters is how it shaves.

If not to your liking come back with photos and observations.

In the bevel set pic, you can see reflecting spots along the edge. This is not a set bevel. Maybe it's the pictures? I know I wouldn't be happy with it myself if I saw one shinny spot at that point. I'd kill the edge lightly and try some more. Then when you got it right, kill the edge and do it again. JMO.

If it were me i wouldn't (and wasn't )be brave enough to tackle my best razor for the first try. Looks good as far as i can tell but a shave is the real test. let us know how it goes.

As rolodave said, when you put it o your face, you'll know exactly how it turned out. Good luck.

Steve, first make sure that your tape is on straight and tight to the spine. Any wrinkle in the tape will affect how the spine rides on the tape and will make an uneven bevel. The wrinkle will burn through quickly.

Slow down, fully set the bevel, stay on the 1k until you have fully cut a new single bevel. Compare your 1k bevel to the 1k bevel from the Second Try at Honing.

Notice the even 1k stria and most important, the straightness of the edge. It is all about the edge, you must hone the bevels to get to a straight edge.

Your 1k edge is not fully set (note the stria and edge in the upper right-hand corner), and not straight and even. If the foundation is not straight and true, the edge will not be straight and strong.

It may shave if the other stones finally set the bevel, (got them to meet fully) but it will not last after repeated stropping. Load your 12k photos into a photo editor, enlarge them and look at the edge, it is micro chipped and not straight and even. That comes from not fully setting the bevel.

Slow down, fully set the 1k bevel until there is a single bevel and that they meet in a straight chip free edge. Move to the 4k when you have a single full bevel from heel to toe and meeting in a chip free edge. Then remove all the 1k stria with the 4k and move up the progression removing the previous stria with the following stone.

If the edge chips, joint it and reset it with 20 or so laps. Make your edges look like the edges in the Second Try at Honing.

Relax you now know enough that you will not ruin the razor, make sure to change the tape at the feel of the slightest burn through. You must spend as much time on each stone as the razor needs. Fully set the bevel, then remove each grits stria fully with the next stone. Slow down.

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I re taped my spine (on the razor, not me) this morning and killed the edge of my razor.

I reset the bevel again and kept going until I could shave arm hair easily, I jointed the edge lightly on the corner of the 1K and bought the edge back 5 laps at a time.

I ran the edge cross my finger nail and bought the edge back with 3 laps, I did it again and once more.

My bevel now cuts arm hair, it does not have a foil (if it looks like there is one, its probably the lights on the microscope causing it).

I spent an hour setting this bevel on a 1k on my best razor and I am seriously starting to worry about how much metal I am removing.

Please say I don't need to remove any more steel.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Steve, first make sure that your tape is on straight and tight to the spine. Any wrinkle in the tape will affect how the spine rides on the tape and will make an uneven bevel. The wrinkle will burn through quickly.

Slow down, fully set the bevel, stay on the 1k until you have fully cut a new single bevel. Compare your 1k bevel to the 1k bevel from the Second Try at Honing.

Notice the even 1k stria and most important, the straightness of the edge. It is all about the edge, you must hone the bevels to get to a straight edge.


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My edge below doesn't have the scratches all in the same direction as the one in your pic. Mine was honed toward a smile with the blade turning and swooping so the scatches are not all in the same direction.

I hope that it isn't a problem that my scratches are not all the same direction because I will remove them on the 4K anyway.

I was under the impression that simple x strokes aren't all I should do but I can if that pattern is what I need. I will lose more steel again of course.

If I need to work more on the 1K, I will start again on a razor that is a bit less important to me.

Of course it would be great if I have succeeded now.

Just removing signs of the previous bevel set at the store must have removed quite a lot of steel.

You do not need to Kill the edge, just joint it to cut off the burr, one lite stroke on the edge of the stone, TNT does not cut off the burr it tears it or just straightens it.

Big difference, the goal is to cut it off clean and get a “straight” edge. Then you just need to get the bevels to meet the already straight edge.

Once you get experience you can hone to a straight edge, but why? I joint the edge repeatedly through the honing process, the goal is to get a straight edge, is it not? You are removing microns of steel and usually just the burr.

Hair test are not definitive, look at the edge, look straight down on the edge with magnification and light, any-any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting, (the bevel is not fully set), It is definitive, there are shiny spots or not.

A corner of a dull razor or burr will cut hair. You must calibrate hair test, find out what it means when you cut hair. It does not always mean you have a complete edge. It is not definitive.

“I spent an hour setting this bevel on a 1k on my best razor and I am seriously starting to worry about how much metal I am removing.”


And that is part of your problem, you can’t baby it, it needs what it needs. In surgery it is called Cutting to the Margins, cut enough to remove all the damaged tissue, and a little extra, so you do not have to go back in.

It should not take an hour, for your final “1k finish laps”, lap your stone to ensure a clean, flat aggressive cutting surface. Look at all the stria that is not going in the same direction, that is not from the X stroke, and look at the edge. It is not straight and full of chip, large chips.

Shinny bevels, even stria are by-products of proper honing, not the goal.

But super straight, smooth shaving edges generally have even stria and shinny bevels with synthetics. The goal is the edge.

“My edge below doesn't have the scratches all in the same direction as the one in your pic. Mine was honed toward a smile with the blade turning and swooping so the scatches are not all in the same direction.

I hope that it isn't a problem that my scratches are not all the same direction because I will remove them on the 4K anyway.”

Look at all the stria that is not going in the same direction. That is not from the X stroke and look at the edge. It is not straight and full of chips, large chips.

No, you will not remove them on the 4k, that is the problem, (here’s that ladder again). You must hone the bevels to get to a straight edge. It is not about a shiny bevel, it is about the edge. Look at the edge, forget about cutting hair, make the edge straight. Make the stria uniform, as perfect as you can. If you do that, the edge will be straight and meeting.

The bevel is not set.


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I decided not to practice on my best razor anymore, I am practicing with my no name English practice razor now.

I added 1 layer of electric tape and 1 of kapton.

I did only x strokes to try and get the scratch pattern all the same direction.

I did:

20 laps with pressure and check x 4 for 80 strokes.

Jointed lightly on the corner.

5 strokes no pressure and check x 6 for 30 strokes

Jointed lightly on the corner.

5 strokes no pressure and check x 4 for 20 strokes.

I stopped there while I still had some razor left!

I do hope there is a decent improvement because quite honestly I am starting to wonder if honing is for me.

I'm not too worried about any chips because I reckon my thumb nail and anoth 3 or 4 strokes could fix them.

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Just to let you know... Honing takes time to learn. I think i was at it for next to 2 years becore it all clicked. Sure, i could make a shaveable edge after a couple months but the next razor i picked up failed. I still get a fail now and then but I know what to do to correct my mistakes now.

Some say honing is easy. Wrong. Honing and getting it right takes time! Now I only had a few hours to practice on my weekends so it took me longer than others.

Just listen to marty and dont give up. One day something will click and its like a slap in the face. You will say to yourself, "why didnt i see that before. It make sence". That is when it starts to come together. Just keep at it. Learn as you go. Take a break when it gets you down but dont give up.

Killing the edge or jointing is done lightly. Its just enough to take a microscopic amount off the edge. Then it should only take a few laps to bring the edge back. I do this often while honing to be sure im getting the most out of my edge before going to the next stone. Learning on your favorite razor was a wrong move. Glad you realised this before it was too late.

It is difficult to tell much from the last photo because it is not focused on the edge. Focus your micrograph pics on the edge.

Also focus on your honing, you are kind of all over the map, now switching razors again.

So, let’s back up a bit. A fully set bevel is 1. Flat from heel to toe, from the back of the bevel to the edge, a single plane. 2, That plane must be in the correct bevel angle, and 3, the bevels must meet in a straight, smooth, chip free edge. If any of those 3 things are not done fully the bevel is not set. It meets the 3 criteria or not.

None of this, “I'm not too worried about any chips because I reckon my thumb nail and anoth 3 or 4 strokes could fix them”. It meets the 3 criteria or not. If you do not do the things needed to get all three of these criteria to happen, to fully set the bevel then honing is not easy, and will fight your every step, as you are experiencing.

Because in addition to cutting a smooth flat bevel on butter soft steel there are going to be other issues, there are always other issues. The steel is super hard, super soft, pitted, cell rotted, has a warp, a twist, a warp and a twist, hard steel, it chips, the heel need reprofiling, the stabilizer are too big, the edge is smiling, or has a frown, the spine is hone worn and the angle is too shallow, the spine is too thick and the angle is too wide, or any of a multitude of issues, like stone issues and on.

Minimize the variables, control the things that can be controlled. Make each step as perfect as you can, don't get lazy, it will bite you.


The first goal is to grind the bevels flat, I do it with circles on a 1k. Circles cut quickly but create a burr because you are doing multiple laps on one side at a time. When we do multiple strokes on one side, no matter the stroke, circles, half laps, or x strokes it causes a burr. When you flip and do the same on the other side the burr lengthens.

So, grind the bevels flat, then cut off the burr on the stone and do single stroke laps. Alternating single laps are less likely to create a burr, because each time you flip you cut off the micro burr and do not allow the burr to grow.

What I do is, 20 circles with pressure, to get flat. Then check the bevel and edge. If needed do more circles in sets of 10, alternating until flat.

Then do half lap strokes in sets of 10, 5, 2 and 1 alternating after each set. (The Ax Method) a la Alex Gilmore.

Joint, cut off any burr and straighten the edge, then do X strokes with lighter pressure, to reset the edge and lay down a uniform stria pattern. Joint as needed and do X laps, 10-20, until the pattern is uniform and the edge is straight. You are now polishing the bevel on the 1k.

Compare your bevels and edges to the 1k photos in the Second Try at Honing. It takes, what it takes.

When you get the edge straight, joint it and go to the 4k. Do 20 circles to remove the deep 1k stria and check the bevel and edge. Do sets of 10 Ax method laps and check the bevel and edge, stay on the 4k until all the 1k stria is gone.

I did exactly as you described, thank you for sharing your method.

I don't doubt that you will see where I am still going wrong but I do think things are looking up.

I jointed the edge on the corner of the stone and did the 10 polishing no pressure x strokes and lightly jointed again to be on the safe side and did another 10 no pressure strokes.

The edge does look good with a loupe and does cut stomach hair (my arms are bald).

The image does seem to show small chips, I mention it because I have learned by now that you will find them just a sure as god made little green apples.

I don't understand why I have those small chips as I only did 10 no pressure x strokes since jointing the edge on the stone. I have heard guys here talk about edges that keep crumbling or chipping. Is it possible I have one like that because I can't think for the life of me why I am getting those chips after just 10 no pressure strokes.

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That edge looks much better. You're improving just in the course of this thread. Don't get discouraged, you'll get it. It takes a while and each razor is different. As Jerry said, one day you'll have the eureka moment. Stria is important but try and remember to focus on the edge. You have gotten good instruction. Maybe try to take a little time to digest it. Don't worry. You'll get it. I admire your determination but cut yourself some slack. You still only have a relatively short time in it.
Are you cleaning your stone often? Chips can come from foreign grit or swarf build up among other things. That's an easy one to eliminate by keeping the stone smooth and clean.
I wouldn't worry quite as much about metal loss from what you have done. You aren't using really low grit stones or doing thousands of laps. It is a danger but I don't think you have removed enough to make that an issue YET.
Keep at it. You're making more improvement than you think. You just have to have patience and be deliberate. I believe in you Steve.:tu

Very well said Paul! I could not say it any better.

STF you are almost there! Just play with it a little more. Keep very close track on any changes you do. At this stage in your progression the smallest things count.

I have had an epiphany!

I honed and honed and honed on my 1k trying to emulate the scratch pattern that Marty showed me but no matter how I tried the edge kept chipping. All be it tiny chips that were only visible under a microscope.

Cresent City razors went into depth on one of my threads (might even be this one) about bevel angles. To be honest most of it went straight over my head and I couldn't see why it mattered so I forgot all about it that complicated nonsense, (my apologies).

Well, I sat and quietly fumed at my little chips. Then a switch flipped in my head and it dawned on me that if my edge was too wide and thin it would be delicate and chip easily. I could only think of one way to tell definitively if that was the case, measure the angle.

Popular opinion seems to suggest that 16 ish degrees is the sweet spot.

I got out my gold dollar that has a big ol spine and was the most likely to have bevel angle issues. I measured the thickness and the width, did the sums and low and behold my bevel angle for my GD is 16.37 degrees. I wanted to protect the spine but electrical tape was too thick and would change the angle more than I wanted so I used just a layer of Kapton, the angle is now 16.62 degrees and I was satisfied.

I set the bevel doing my best to keep the scratch pattern uniform but not like the world was going to stop spinning if it wasn't.

I looked with my loupe and it looked good, I looked under my scope and the tiny chips weren't there. The razor shaved hair so I moved on, 4k and no chips, I jointed the edge a couple of times and bought it back in about half dozen light laps, the loupe looked good and the 1k scratches were gone so I moved on. I jointed it a few more times and bought it back quickly. The loupe was all good, the chips were still not there and the 4k scratches were gone. I moved on to Naniwa 12k ss. I jointed the razor again a couple of times and easily bought it back. The loupe looked good, the scope looked good and the 8k scratches were gone.

I gave it a few of laps on Cro Ox on a leather strop, cleaned it on nylon with 15 laps. 15 laps on cotton twill and 60 on leather. My GD was tree topping like a very sharp thing.

Well I have not been honing long enough to get wicked edges, there are rules you know, so I decided that the hht meant nothing and I should shave.

I have been BBS plenty of times before but today with a GD! What can I say, I don't have a reason to shave until Monday now which is great news for my edge but sad because i like shaving.

I am going to measure the angle on all my razors because think I have learned the secret to a great edge, I wish I had listened earlier when the importance of bevel angles was explained.

The no name made in England that was giving me chip problems will be the first to be measured and I have a feeling that I might just discover why it was chipping.

I added the formula to a spreadsheet so all I do now is enter the thickness and width, the angle is calculated automatically and I can save every razor I measure.

If anyone needs the formula for their spreadsheet just let me know.

I do have one question if I may.

I know how to increase the bevel angle (tape etc), but how would a person decrease it, I assume you don't just wear the spine away until the angle has decreased enough?

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Originally Posted by STF

I do have one question if I may.

I know how to increase the bevel angle (tape etc), but how would a person decrease it, I assume you don't just wear the spine away until the angle has decreased enough?

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I don't see any other way but to wear the spine down if it is too wide. A too wide spine is not usually an issue with vintage razors because a lot have excessive hone wear.

Bob

Congrats! You got one blade figured out.
The next blade may well have different issues. Like Jerry says honing is easy until it isn't.

I don't get all hung up on bevel angles. I do get picky about how thick the blade is before honing.

After polishing most blades will cut arm hair. This is before ever putting the blade on a hone.
These bevels are very thin and take little effort to hone. This approach has served me well. YMMV.

Practice is fun.

Another trick that helps my slightly arthritic hands. Is taping the blade and scales. This gives me much better contro!.

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Originally Posted by rolodave

Congrats! You got one blade figured out.
The next blade may well have different issues. Like Jerry says honing is easy until it isn't.

I don't get all hung up on bevel angles. I do get picky about how thick the blade is before honing.

After polishing most blades will cut arm hair. This is before ever putting the blade on a hone.
These bevels are very thin and take little effort to hone. This approach has served me well. YMMV.

Practice is fun.

Another trick that helps my slightly arthritic hands. Is taping the blade and scales. This gives me much better contro!.

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Thanks for the great advice.

I have to say though, practice is not fun for me, I hate not winning every time :roflmao

Yep...your doing just fine, for a green horn ( new guy )

Don't let things discourage you, we all have those days, honing. When we do, we walk away from it, and come back another day.

Just remember.... Some of us here, have decade's of honing experience, and can make it seem easy.

I chuckled in thought, about your edge on the GD. I was thinking about what your edges will be like in the next few years, and how you'll look back at those crappy edges, you thought were so grand in the beginning.

You'll see.....:tu

Hi guys,

Yesterday I had great success with my Gold dollar.

I paid attention to the blade for the first time, up to that point I just rubbed a razor on a stone and hoped it would eventually get sharp. I had to spend a ridiculous amount of time wearing my razors away.

Yesterday however I got where I wanted to be much more quickly just by paying attention and thinking about what was happening.

Marty explained about warped blades and it made a massive difference.

I marked my edge with sharpie and actually looked closely for the first time at was was happening to the mark.

One side the sharpie disappeared in the centre but remained at both ends, that was an easy rolling x stroke fix.

The other side was the opposite, I suppose that was obvious but I had to see it before I understood fully. The sharpie disappeared at both ends but remained in the middle.

I don't really understand the one inch of the hone concept because although I could see how to use 1 inch on the toe, the heel was going to make the blade use the whole stone.

Anyway, I honed it by doing a basic x stroke but making sure I used the whole stone and doing a perfect stroke with the toe finishing with about an inch left on the stone. That seemed to hone the middle of the edge as it came of the stone.

I really feel like yesterday was a milestone for me and my honing took a giant leap simply by learning to pay attention and letting the blade tell me what it wants instead of closing my eyes and rubbing steel on stone and hoping for success given enough time.

https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1...an-mile-7.html

I did fix the GD stabilizer/shoulder (is it called a shoulder or a stabilizer?) issue with a dremel and a sanding drum. I can now hone without the stabilizer holding the heel off the stone.

∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆

Congrats!

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Originally Posted by outback

Yep...your doing just fine, for a green horn ( new guy )

Don't let things discourage you, we all have those days, honing. When we do, we walk away from it, and come back another day.

Just remember.... Some of us here, have decade's of honing experience, and can make it seem easy.

I chuckled in thought, about your edge on the GD. I was thinking about what your edges will be like in the next few years, and how you'll look back at those crappy edges, you thought were so grand in the beginning.

You'll see.....:tu

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I know you're right Mike.

I think my GD edge is fantastic and I'm really proud of myself but I still remember how proud I was of my shaving at about 10 shaves in and I laugh when I compare then to where I am now, so I know that a year from now my excellent edge will seem funny in retrospect.

I am really looking forward to that.

This hobby is humbling.

The more you know the more ways you will find for improvements