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Hi, I made a straight razor and wasn't able to get it sharp enough. I gave it to someone to professionally hone it and he said he took it up to 12k and stropped it. I also stropped the crap out of it on a suede then leather, with chromium oxide but it still isn't comfortable to shave with. It'll clean my leg or arm no problem but it just pulls and hurts on my face, gave me a nasty cut too. Any ideas?
Lots to take in to consideration. Depending on your skills making the razor it may or may not ever take an edge.
The honer you sent it to may have put a nice edge to it but "stropping the crap out of it" could have easily ruined it. Doing a ton of stropping on CroOx isn't the answer too.
You cut your face from using a razor that is not sharp and applying pressure. In future if you feel tugging put the razor down and use something else. Your face will thank you for it.
It happens
I just sent a handmade razor back, that just would not quite get over the top..
The edge would get "Sharp" but the temper would not hold a "Shaving Edge"
I don't know if that is the issue on yours, whoever honed it should have been able to tell you what is going on with it..
A few possibilities;
Bevel angle; Spine thickness/Active width X 57.3 = ...º
Heat treat; I had one where I missed the heat treat. I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't hold an edge and finally got frustrated enough to check the hardness with a file. Depending on your grind and luck you may get away with re heat treating. My thin grind potato chipped and now I have a fancy damascus craft knife. Live and learn.
Bevel reveal width; This is not a show stopper, but can test the patients of the person doing the honing IME.
Another possibility is that the professional honer isn't that good.
As mark said you might have rolled the edge with aggressive stropping. If that's the case you might be able to bring it back easily enough. Don't know what kind of honing setup or experience you have but you mentioned that you and tried to sharpen it. If the honer sent you a description of how he honed it, (i.e. 1 layer of tape, 2 layers, no tape) you could possibly refresh with a barber's hone or start at 4k then 8k if you have water stones then strop more lightly. If he was proficient you should still have a good bevel set. There are a lot of unknowns but maybe that will work. It's at least a place to start.
First, post some photos of the razor and edge.
Look straight down on the edge with magnification. If you see any shiny reflections, that is where the bevels are not meeting. It could be that it was honed properly, but improper stropping could have rolled the edge. “I also stropped the crap out of it on a suede then leather, with chromium oxide”, Dollars to Doughnuts, you have a shiny bevel and rolled edge.
It happens all the time. Stropping a razor takes time to learn, about a year for most folks.
Make sure your “Razor Honer” shaves with a straight razor, not the local knife guy down the street that sharpens lawnmower blades and knives on a belt sander.
Or as said heat treat or bevel angle. Post pics and look at the edge.
I am left wondering about your shaving experience. It may not be the razor at all. If you hold a well honed razor at too high of an angle, it will tug and cut every time. There is more at play than the edge, the steel and the hones.
The heat treat is good, about 62 rockwell. Spine is 3/16 and width is 3/4. I can't see any rolling on the edge but it could be so small it's invisible. I've been shaving up til now with a straight that has replaceable blades. I shaved at the same angle I use with that one and also tried different angles but no luck. Here is the razor. Here are some pics.Attachment 327900Attachment 327901Attachment 327902
Ok, I probably shouldn't have said it like that. What I meant was I did alot of passes on the strop, I was still gentle with it though. I didn't do it aggressively. I cant see any places where the bevel doesn't meet, but just to double check you mean looking down with the edge facing you, not looking at the edge from the side?Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
have you looked at the edge with a loupe? with proper lighting that can tell alot that way. Look for sparkly spots or a glow along the edge. I use a 30x loupe. For me it's more usful than a microscope.
IIRC the "Danascus" should not run down to the cutting edge. Most razor makers fold in a different, non-Damascus piece of steel, that will be the cutting edge.
I’m not seeing an even bevel along the whole edge.
Yes, look straight down on the edge with magnification, edge facing you. With a 10-20x magnification and strong light behind you, you will be able to see microchips, sparkles.
This is a no BS simple way to check for a fully set bevel. You can roll an edge with one swipe, it does not take much, remember you can not see the actual edge, without about 1000x magnification. Add paste and the ability to polish or destroy are increased, dramatically.
Here is a good, old post by Toxikwaste, on how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc)
Yeah, looking at the edge does basically nothing without magnification, at least a little. Even a lighted magnifying glass with a second inner loupe will tell you a lot. You can't tell squat with the naked eye. I think the biggest part of your problem could be that wootz steel. It looks really cool and is good but if you are not experienced at forging or smithing it is a challenge. The veins of carbides can be very fickle to work an edge into. I'm admittedly out of my depth here but I do know you have to know how to work with it to get good results.
It’s not wootz, but like a lot have said it could be lots of factors, I lean toward your hone guy being a problem, and your experience with a straight. Disposable blade ones shave differently, and yes the most important skill to learn is stropping. Just as much problems created from stropping as handing your razor to a hack to hone. Lots of things, most of us didn’t do that well on our early razors.
What steels did you use? How close the the finished width and thickness were you when you heat treated?
Begging everyone's pardon. Reiterating the " out of my depth" part. The patterned steels still wouldn't be a place I would go for quite a while and not without lots of practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
If you are not pretty good at honing and you are already trying to make razors, you are kind of trying to run before you learn to walk. Or trying to play basketball before you can crawl. Something like that. That's okay, it's not a sin. But just recognize that you are at least sometimes gonna have problems with this approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeviPrince
A wedge is an easy razor to make, but not such an easy razor to hone. I would have started with a quarter to half hollow. Of course I have a personal bias for hollowgrounds. The wedge grind is not a complete dealbreaker. And you had it rockwell tested? Or used files? Where you tested might or might not be the same hardness as the edge.
Was your honemeister a member of this or another straight razor forum, who has been around a while? Or was he just some guy with a shingle out on the internet who says he can hone a razor? Many talk the talk, but few walk the walk. It COULD be your guy just didn't do a good job. On the other hand, you tried, first. My suspicion is that it is not the honing at fault, exactly, though your honer should have verified the edge a bit before returning it, to be fair.
Do you have a USB microscope? Why don't you have a look at the edge at 100 or 200x, and compare to a known good edge on a known good razor? I might be wrong, but I am really feeling like your steel and particularly your HT and temper delivered unexpected results. It happens. When you are first starting, it happens a lot. Very nice looking piece of pattern welding, but pretty don't shave.
I am also noticing the same thing as Mark, the stropping the crap out of it on suede then leather with CrOx and I wish I could say I approve, but I can't. And you should always shave without stropping when someone sends you a razor that is supposed to be shave ready. Experience the edge as it was crafted by the guy you paid to do it. Once you have stropped, that opportunity is past and gone. If it had shaved brilliantly or even just acceptably when you got it, Then, with a baseline to match, you could have stropped the crap out of it on everything you got, and you would know within a reasonable doubt that your stropping was at fault if the second shave was off. You passed up that opportunity by stropping before shaving.
Your bevel angle doesn't look bad though TBH I have a hard time eyeballing wedges but I don't believe it is out of the envelope.
So my first suspect is edge hardness. Second suspect, stropping. Third suspect and possible accomplice to one or more of the others, your honemeister. At this point there is likely nothing you can do about edge hardness. But take some microscope shots if you have a suitable scope, and let us see them. And you look at them good, for chipping or crumbling, or anything that just looks not quite right. You know your edge is substandard, so have a good look and see just what is so substandard about it.
Finally you could try sending it out to one of the resident honemeisters here for another try at an edge and a second opinion on the steel and the geometry.
Maybe next razor you make, use a single alloy, a nice easy and well known one like 1095 maybe. And scoop it out into about a half hollow. Save final grinding to finished thickness until after the quench. Do your final grinding and polishing, pin it up and hone it. Eliminate the wild cards and start from a known platform and if your first razor just doesn't work out, the second one probably will.
And if the problem is your first razor, don't feel no way about it. It was still a noble effort and deserves a nice display.
