Serrated edges, or the value of using a loupe

Since I'm new to honing, I thought I'd throw out my beginner observations here for you more experienced gentlemen to comment on. It's long, but that's because I'm used to writing long accounts. :rolleyes: Can't write short and concise accounts. Occupational hazard, I think...

First off, as some of you may know I purchased a handful of straight razor blades off eBay earlier this year, with the intention of putting scales on them, getting them to where they shave again and thus rescuing them from the scrap heap. One of the blades had some nicks in the edge, the largest one being about a millimeter deep, and even though I had a hone of unknown quality purchased at a dollar store a couple of years ago, I knew this was way too coarse to use for a straight razor. So I knew I would need to buy some more appropriate hone(s).

Second, I used a couple of home-made paddle strops to bring the edge of my first new straight to where it would shave me without pulling, so I had some confidence that this would be one way of getting the blades "shave ready". The first blade I re-handled was sharpened using those paddle strops.

Anyhow, in order to restore the chipped razor to working condition, I purchased the beginner set of hones from Tilly (a.k.a. Redtrader99) from her website, consisting of one Cushion Strop (coarse), one Gem hone (medium) and one Frictionite #24 (fine). When I received the hones I lapped them on the fine side of the dollar store hone, and then started working on the edge of the chipped razor, on the coarsest of the barber hones.

I used the circular motion recommended by Lynn in his DVD, and checked frequently to see whether the nicks were coming out. After approximately a thousand or so circles on each side, I couldn't see the largest nick anymore with my naked eye, so I proceeded to do a pyramid, starting with the coarsest hone in place of the 4000 grit side of the Norton, and the medium hone in place of the 8000 grit side of the Norton, and used the fine hone as a finishing stone. I was using water on all of the hones. Then I did about ten laps on the chrome oxide pasted paddle strop.

To finish off, I did about 35 laps on my leather strop and tried shaving with the razor. It shaved, but it didn't shave well.

Back to the finest hone, and then another go on the chrome oxide and leather strop. Still no good.

So, today I decided to take out the 10x loupe I had in a drawer, and examined the edges of my straight razors. When I looked at the edge of the razor I had honed, I was surprised to see lots of serrations. The other edges were more or less completely smooth. :hmmm:

So, I decided to work some more on the edge of that razor. I used the finest hone, primarily, and this time I didn't use any water, and a really, really light touch. That seemed to work, at first, since the serrations were disappearing more and more. Then they started returning!

So I decided to finish the edge on the pasted paddle strops instead. Used the coarser paste first and examined the edge through the loupe. Still serrations. Then the chrome oxide. Examined the edge again. Better, but still some serrations. Decided to strop the razor on the leather strop. Did 60 laps. Examined the edge again. Success! Only about three microscopic "nicks"! So it would seem the stropping really helps in smoothing the edge out.

Does this seem consistent with what the rest of you have experienced, or am I just inept at using the hones and need to work more on my technique? :shrug:

/Nicholas

I liked your post. You write loonng messages, winged it on ebay stuff instead of going with conventional wisdom, and are having mixed success.

My story is pretty much the same. I have a mixed bag of hones and am still learning how to use them.

I use a small hand lens similar to your loupe (6 and 10X) and I see striations, maybe scratches, but couldn't describe them as serrations.
I use a 12K Chinese to polish them out, (ain't got no stinkin' Coticule) and given enough patience, limitless tenacity, they seem to come out.

I too have more than a few ebay razors that I'm cautiously beginning to work on.

For nicked edges, I do circles on 1000 grit wet sandpaper stuck to a flat tile. Then I go to my mismatched barber hones and then on to the Chinese.
I did exactly that procedure on a Case 'Temperite' last night and also reformed the scales (similar to the procedure suggested by Traveler). I'm very pleased with the results. I'll test shave as soon as I can fit it in.

I also bought some actual 'new' razors. . . Wapis. I honed one a couple days ago and it took well over an hour messing around to get it shave ready. Today, I dropped it and took a huge chunk out of the edge...arrrrrgh!!!

So, I attempted a more organized approach on Wapi #2 and got it equally sharp in under 45 minutes. I will pop for a Norton 4/8 and maybe soon. OTOH, I have a rotation of more shave ready razors than could ever be necessary.

This post probably hasn't answered any of your questions, but it does contain the bulk of my experience honing razors. I've got a head full of great knowledge gained from this forum, and as soon as that can be translated into useful experience, I'll be much closer to where I wish to be.

FINALLY, on one of the barber hone threads someone wondered 'do you guys enjoy messing around with this old stuff?' 'If you would just get a 1k for setting bevel, a 4/8 Norton, Belgian finisher, and pasted strop you wouldn't have to mess around with all this antique sh*t'

He probably thinks I'm a dumass, and I think he's missing out on a lot of the fun. <insert smilie>

Cheers

You need to work on your honing. What may I ask possessed you to lessen the amount of water on the high grit hone?

Thinking of the four things that are critical to prevent chipping I would guess using water would be one of those four, followed by using an x pattern (for edge support), and using a high grit hone as the third criteria. The fourth might be using a light touch. There are probably others.

If an edge chips think of it as weak and think of weak as thin, then think of thin as sharp (you need smoothness too, many overlook this criteria in honing).

Now in order to reattack a chipped edge you could take it as thin as possible on 4K, then stop and go to 8K with lots of water and no pressure using an x pattern.

Honing like this produces the least damage to the edge as you hone. The goal is to produce an edge as thin and fragile as, well . . . a razor.

I bet there are other thoughts you have on honing a "softly" as possible to produce the finest edge. It takes patience, but the results are mind blowing.

My first thought is that a 10x loupe is insufficient to really see the condition of the edge. Yes you'll see the big stuff. I have a 38x very high grade loupe and I find its about the minimum to use for straight edge inspection.

Personally I'm not that big a fan of barber's hones. How do you know what the grit size is? If you are starting out do yourself a favor and get a norton 4K/8K, down the road you'll be glad you did.

Other than this I can't add more Alan is correct.

I agree with thebigspendur. Up until yesterday i was using a 10x loop to view my edge and everything looked fine then i got lucky and while shopping at estate sales this weekend came across a 100x-300x microscope (which i got for free).
while observing my edge tonight all my razors look like saw blades at 200x so now i need to asses my honing technique again.

You'll see lots of problems at 200x that won't be noticible when shaving.

I use 60x and my edges look smooth with an occasional microchip down the edge.

Interesting replies. Thank you gentlemen.

The reason I went with the barber hones is that 1, I can't really justify the expenditure of upwards of $100 on a Norton 4000/8000 hone (which it will be by the time I pay for the hone, shipping and currency conversion) at the moment, since I'm unemployed, and 2, I understand that the barber hones are generally considered slower cutting than a Norton, which I thought would be good - less chance of overhoning.

As for the amount of magnification you need - yes, yes, the more the better, but you have to make do with what you have some times. And even at that low magnification I did get some valuable clues as to what was going on with the edge.

My reason for omitting the water on the finest stone was that the hones can be used dry, as well as lubricated with water or lather, or with a slurry. Since I was getting suboptimal results using both water and a slurry on the hone, I thought I'd give it a go dry, and my gamble paid off, so don't knock it! :D

I guess I will have to keep experimenting with the hones and inspect the edge with the loupe to find what seems to work best for me.

/Nicholas

Very good! More magnification is better only to a point, don't go too far.

You might try keeping track of what the edge does with a barber hone and use it dry for the beginning, move to adding water, then move to adding lather in order to lessen the cutting and slow the hone down farther.

So if you do like 30 passes on a dry hone and you see chipping after the last 10 passes, then do some circle honing and then do only 20 passes and then add water, or move to the finer grit.

Honing is as much about a strategy, as it is about timing, as it is about a good stroke. In a broad perspective all three are important considerations.

Removing the water wasn't a mistake but I didn't understand the timing of it. I think you'll find that the process should be dry, then wet, then with lather on your finest hone. Also I noted the stone you used to lap it in your original post. Try and find some 1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper. A Frictionite #24 needs a high grit lapping, very high grit.

And sorry to be difficult about it. I always assume that every poster has read every post from the dawn of time. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

You might try keeping track of what the edge does with a barber hone and use it dry for the beginning, move to adding water, then move to adding lather in order to lessen the cutting and slow the hone down farther.

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Sounds like a good strategy. I'll try that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Try and find some 1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper. A Frictionite #24 needs a high grit lapping, very high grit.

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I have up to 2500 grit wet/dry sandpaper, which I use to finish the handles of the knives I make, so that's covered. I actually already did lap all three hones with a 1500 grit sandpaper wrapped tightly around my dollar store hone for stability and to keep the surface flat. I think I'll do another round on an even finer grit sandpaper and put the paper on a bench to keep it flat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

And sorry to be difficult about it. I always assume that every poster has read every post from the dawn of time. :)

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No problem. The sheer amount of information here sometimes makes it difficult for newbies to find the relevant information even if they do a search. :hmmm:

/Nicholas

I use a stereo microscope set to 80 magnification,I agree ,that if the edge looks good at 50 power it will probably shave well. I dont use anything higher than 80 (although my scope will go to 200).I dont really use it much ,just sometimes to check out an edge before I start honing to see whats needed.I dont think a scope is necessary once you have experience,and can be confusing if you dont know what you are looking for,also a poor quality scope can be a real pain in the a**,and your better off not even using them IE: Radio Shack
Best regards Gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minstrel

Interesting replies. Thank you gentlemen.

The reason I went with the barber hones is that 1, I can't really justify the expenditure of upwards of $100 on a Norton 4000/8000 hone (which it will be by the time I pay for the hone, shipping and currency conversion) at the moment, since I'm unemployed, and 2, I understand that the barber hones are generally considered slower cutting than a Norton, which I thought would be good - less chance of overhoning.

Those are reason enough to go with barber hones

As for the amount of magnification you need - yes, yes, the more the better, but you have to make do with what you have some times. And even at that low magnification I did get some valuable clues as to what was going on with the edge.

My reason for omitting the water on the finest stone was that the hones can be used dry, as well as lubricated with water or lather, or with a slurry. Since I was getting suboptimal results using both water and a slurry on the hone, I thought I'd give it a go dry, and my gamble paid off, so don't knock it! :D

You have made the wrong assumption about barber hones here. Not all can be used dry and none I know of are used with a slurry. Most are used with water or lather and some can be used with oil. I would suggest you try lather next time on the fine hone, it is less painful for the edge :)

I guess I will have to keep experimenting with the hones and inspect the edge with the loupe to find what seems to work best for me.


/Nicholas

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I tried to get people on this forum to take part in a test of barber hones so we could all have a better knowledge of their cutting abilities. This fell on deaf ears so the likes of you will have to remain in the dark on what effect you can expect from the hones you have. Experimentation is all thats left, but this is fun in itself :)

PuFF

Sounds like you’re doing a good job of making the best of what you have. That’s a great way to learn—keeps you from falling prey to the “more equipment = better edges” trap.

I think a 10x loupe is a lot better than nothing. I use the 30x lighted microscope that Randy recommended a while back, and that’s all that I feel I need. Once you know what to look for, you can actually see quite a bit with the naked eye if you use a strong, point light source like an incandescent bulb. I can usually anticipate what I’ll see under the microscope from the way the light reflects off the edge.

The thumbnail test is also good for helping to pick up imperfections in the edge. Sometimes you’ll have a bevel that looks good under magnification but just won’t get sharp. The thumbnail test comes into play here; usually there’s a slight double bevel, and it’ll feel different as you draw it across the nail…

I’ll break from the pack a bit here and offer that I think that it’s the job of the lower grits to take out microchips. In my limited experience, I haven’t seen microchips occur on the higher grits, particularly when using slower hones. (The exception would be a piece of stray grit or something—but that’s not the hone.) I suspect that those microchips were there all along, but you just happen to notice them when you’re trying to figure out why a sharp edge is causing irritation.

For me, at least, once a clean, straight edge is established on a lower-grit hone in the 1K to 4K range, it usually stays that way through the higher grits. I use a 1200-grit DMT to take out chips and straighten the edge. Even at this coarse grit, it can still take quite a few laps to take out a chip.

If you find that you’re still having trouble, I’d suggest working with your coarsest barber hone until the edge appears straight, uniform and chip-free. That gives you a solid foundation to build on for sharpness. :)

Just my 2 cents,
Josh