Most of you probably already know this but I have always lapped my stones before honing with a just a few strokes of a diamond plate and I have struggled with a bevel a few times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSdNFs5c0-M
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Most of you probably already know this but I have always lapped my stones before honing with a just a few strokes of a diamond plate and I have struggled with a bevel a few times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSdNFs5c0-M
Well, first of all this is a demonstration of why you use an x stroke. Remember in another post recently you brought up a question about a heel hook? THAT is how you get one not to mention a frown. Also the diagonal stroke prevents a lot of this, not keeping your stones flat but preventing it from affecting your bevel set. It is still best to lap your stone regularly. I normally do every time I use it...and use a lapping plate with sic powder. I only use a diamond plate for making slurry. Also I use the majority of the stone where he is using just the center. You get a sow belly in your stone when you do that and it creates more wear and more work to get it back flat. In addition, using both hands not only wears your razor but your stones as well. Holding the stone in hand and honing with the other keeps the pressure from being as much of an issue.
Oh yeah, and don't wash all that sediment down your drain. It can turn to a rock in your sewer pipes.
I get the impression that he was not actually honing, more discussing the importance of lapping and how quickly a synthetic stone can need relapping. It looked like he was using Naniwa SS but he may have been making a point about any synthetic, I only have Nortons and Naniwas and the discussion could apply to either of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
As to honing, unless you do it for a living, lapping your stones ,or stone, doesn’t need done very often, as a matter of fact after your razor is honed from the bevel up, it won’t need to see a stone for lots and lots of shaves. I maintain my razors no honing. I get out my Nani 12k and most of the time 3-4 laps lightly and I do it dry. Maybe 4 years since I lapped it, the rest of my hones sit in the toolbox,, haven’t set a bevel in years. Hard to wear out a stone
The 1k hone is about the only one that may need checked every now n then. Its your workhorse, the rest is polishing, and only see a little use, in comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
This. ^
Also you can never really get a truly flat stone if the lapping plate you are using is the same size or smaller than the hone you need to flatten, the lapping plate needs to be larger than the hone so all the surface is worked the same amount.
I think lapping your stones every time you need to hone a razor is a waste of stone tbh, especially if you are just touching up an edge on a fine hone and not doing any heavy work.
I do tend to reset the bevels and do the complete progression whenever I need to or just fancy giving my razors some love.Quote:
Originally Posted by thp001
Obviously they don't need all that work but because setting the bevel is the most important part of the honing process. I do it a lot to learn, improve and practice. If I just touched up my blades when they needed it I would be able to keep them good for a long time but I wouldn't be practiced at start to finish.
I lap mine a few strokes every time mainly to refresh the surface and get rid of tape and other residues more out of fancy than anything, and that only with synths. I really never lap my Arks after the initial lapping but way too much is made of dead flatness. If you use an x stroke with limited pressure even if it is not dead flat is much ado about nothing. My dad used stones with big bellies in them and he could get a knife so sharp it was scary. He didn't do as many razors but when I inherited his barber hone I flattened it because it was bellied also. I like narrow stones better than wide ones especially for smiling blades or ones with geometric problems because it minimizes the effect of geometry.
All of this though is academic. If you really know what you're doing you can hone on a cinder block.
Cinder block Paul, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
How many miliion times have i told you not to exaggerate :roflmao
Cinder block are definitely not flat enough to hone on. A house brick? Maybe. :p
Laugh if you will but I have toyed with it on a lark. Bricks often have too many pocket inclusions, plus they have little chunks of aggregate, at least the couple I've tried. The trick is finding a brick you can set a bevel on. After lapping enough to hone on they were a little fine and hard for bevel set.
I am still keeping my eyes open for one that has even enough continuity and absence of pockets to actually work. I got a little distracted from that experiment which may be a fools errand anyway.
I don’t remember the last time I actually lapped one of my hones. I do clean then often when honing, like between razors, but occasionally if my 1K is getting dirty while setting a really troublesome bevel.
Also if you are honing on cinderblocks, you really need to hone with milk.
Good tip...:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
So, if that guy only has a 1200 diamond plate, he may never have full flattened the stones originally and that hollow may have been there since new. How could he have ground away the belly of the stone, if the razor is not even touching the middle?
You probably could flatten a new stone with 1200 grit, but it would take a lot of laps. A much lower grit 3-400 or better yet a 140 plate would be more efficient.
I think many people just do one grid lapping and call it flat, when really the slurry washed off the marks and the stone was never flat. If a new pencil grid does not come completely off in 5-6 laps, the stone is not flat/smooth enough. You can still hone on it, but it could be more efficient. The swarf on his Super Stones is a typical to those stones.
But more importantly this problem is from other issues, technique as said a X stroke would hone the razor properly on that stone, and that heel needs correcting and keeping half the razor off the stone. You can easily see the pointy heel quickly becoming a hook and the massive wear on the toe where he is using more pressure trying to grind the spine.
If he corrected the heel and lapped the stone with 140 grit all these issues would go away.
Ive used a clay tile, to sharpen knives on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill31521
I think many of the natural honing stones we use may have been quarried for use as roofing or floor tiles or even as pavers. I know Vermont Green, Vermio and others started their useful lives that way and became hones only because someone thought to try them out. We have a few rock hounds among us who are aways on the look out for a new potential hone when hiking in the wilderness.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Go for it Paul.
I can relate to that. It's a side effect of HAD. Suddenly every rock you see is a potential hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by DZEC
Ok, but why just grind away your razor, it’s meant for shaving not grinding, get a few cheap knives if you just want to grind. But hey it’s your steel, till it’s ground awayQuote:
Originally Posted by STF
To learn to hone I just kept buying used razors that needed some to plenty of TLC. That way I did not keep grinding on the same razors wearing them away for nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
Bob
Hmmm. I did something similar except I used NOS and razors in very good condition. I was trying to learn to hone, not repair or do restoration work. That came slightly later, I’ll let you know when I think I’m climbing out of that rabbit hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
That sounds like enabling Bob.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH
"Hi, I'm Paul and I have RAD." ...:rofl2:
Actually that is a very good argument for buying razors, especially in lots. I have drawers full in one state or another of repair, renovation and restoration. This one addiction gave rise to others like HAD.
Your right TC. Luckily PaulFLUS generously sent me four blunt razors to learn and practice on that wouldn't matter if i killed em.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
I still use those for practice rather than my others although they are in my rotation as well.
A lot of my razors are old beaters for less than $20 on the bay so I don't have a problem with honing them either, obviously I don't touch good stuff.
I cut to the chase and just started buying raw steel.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Since knives are honed in an angle and not laying flat on the stone, they can be honed with a stone that has a big belly. It is not the same with straight razors that need to lay flat on the hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Yes that is true which I know can't be compared but don't forget that I also said...Quote:
Originally Posted by Slur
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
While I often use lapping film rather than stones, I do use my coarse stones a lot for edge repair and bevel setting. Usually I don't hone just one razor. I will do a batch of 10 or more. So, my coarse stones get lapped before every major session. Like @thp001, I try to minimize or eliminate overrun. Tiny little details can add up incrementally for a (maybe/sometimes/sorta) noticeably better edge. At least that is the theory that my possibly placebo effected brain works on. I agree with @PaulFLUS that honing in hand is a great way to keep the pressure balanced and regulated. Heel hooks? We know how to deal with heel hooks. Remove the heel! But a good X stroke with a good heel leading angle helps prevent them from forming.
@Euclid440 is right. First grid lapped away, only indicates flatness if it is ground off in just a few laps. I generally go a second time. The second go at it usually does get the grid off in just a few laps, and then you know it is pretty close to dead flat. I actually don't always draw the grid, for the first round. You can usually tell when you have a new fresh surface showing, without a grid.