Transitioning from tools to razors part ii

This original thread humbled me into learning that straight razor honing is not planer and chisel honing. For one, the stakes are so much higher on a soft target.

So now eBay delivered a nice kit of Naniwa 1, 3, 8 & 12k stones. I've put the DMT extra fine and Boy Scout stones away.I found an affordable loupe from Belarus BeLomo 20x (10 x would have been better choice) I have two strops and a piece of denim. One is a nice Illinois 206 and the other is pretty beat up for practice or maybe pasting?

My practice razor is a griffon xx taped. So far, I believe to be following directions well.

The main learning was to stop focusing on the 12k mirror finish ( it doesn't help ) but to start over and set te edge.

I'm following the honing guide https://shavelibrary.com/w/Beginner%27s_Guide_to_Honing and still need practice, but it looks great. Uniform slightly angled scratches on the 1000.

Long essay... but some questions

1) magic marker test - nice and clean except the last centimeter. I'll post a pic. Is it pressure? Practice? Smiley? Frowny? Lapping? Is it obvious?

2) ceramic naniwa 1k is a new ballgame for me. It seems to be building up? Ok right? Expected for fiftyish strokes?

3) I stroked t until it hums ... can't explain but it felt like a sharpening stone now it feels like smooth glass. That's a good sign but I don't know if I've got an edge or the same useless sharpness as before?

4) wet, right? (It feels right)

5) videos ? Is there a great video that we trust? I keep finding people demonstrating on paper

I don't want to progress up until 1k gets a passing grade.

One pic shows apparent buildup and practice razor
One pic shows clean green start
One pic shows AFTER four careful strokes on each side. The other side is clean.

Why did you tape like that ???

Out of all the vids on my channel that deal with honing this might be my Fav to show to newbs

It isn't me honing,,, just helping, back when Mark was new to this

https://youtu.be/vxrs5kFkmJg?si=Npzs3_0l5LYABHHS

Why tape like that? Dunno…. Just doing what I was told, sir. This blade’s shoulder already had significant wear and the blade width is worn all the way close to the logo, so it made a good practice blade. I understand heretofore throughout eternity I shall tape this blade when honing. I’m sure the angle is going to be quite steep.

I’m digging into the video now…thanks!

“First thing you do is tape” says the video. Did I tape it incorrectly? Maybe that’s what you meant?

Yes, it's taped incorrectly. It needs taped from just past the shoulders, to the toe.

The hone wear on that blade requires advanced taping techniques. To learn right, u need a razor with minimal, even hone wear, or a new razor.

Watch numerous videos and abstract the info that u commonly see and hear.

I'll say this...use an X stroke, over flat honing the whole edge all at once. That's the most common stroke for most razors

Found in every barbers handbook. Along with learning to shave a balloon to pass the test, for shaving customers.

Mike and Glen are always right! ;)
Always, ALWAYS hone toward a smile and at least tape the spine all the way.Hang some off the grob.
Creative tape wear/adding tape is something learned but only after basics are grounded.

From Myself...

Don't begin with a train wreck. Those need advanced stuff. Good razor with fine geometry which won't quite shave.
That's what you want. :tu

This is a worn out practice razor.
Focusing on the initial bezel is the focus and whether this blade makes it to shave-ready would require advanced skills. So let's just use it to get the bevel right.

I'll re-tape it . I did the x strokes on the 1000. It's not ready for any balloon test. I'm a little lost.

How do you know the edge is perfect, neither over nor under honed?
Whether the angle is off by thousandths due to size is of no consequence.

I don't want to practice on some of the nicer and older blades in this bunch. I'm trying to learn edge. Then hone. Then strop.

Then I'll Polish a nice one before starting it all again.

You now have a good quality set of hones, good job. With practice and lots of patience they will get a razor to shave ready, provided no heavy lifting is required with low grits. Make sure those new stones are flat, don't assume they are. Pencil a grid all over stone face and lap with a fine diamond plate. Repeat process to be sure. Before a honing session I always run a few laps across the stones with a fine diamond plate. Hones can dish faster than you think. As the other fellas said, run the tape from tip of toe to just past shoulders. Avoid bubbles and wrinkles in tape. Sounds pedantic but you gotta do the simple little things right. Check tape regular, it can wear through fast on 1k. Remember, be patient. Try avoid info overload, I found it useful to follow honing advice from just one or two helpful experienced fellas.

Get some Captan tape to protect your now perfect tape job

Note: be careful. I know two extremely experienced and talented honers who both got 8 stitches just from taping

Honing, is a very difficult thing to teach in person, let alone by description. That's for sure. Even more so when it's as fine a edge, as a straight. Were talking one step from surgical sharp, if not, here. It's something that takes time to learn, and a lot more to learn/create techniques for stubborn blades.

Go slow, take your time learning to set a proper bevel, as your doing. Depending on the condition of razor, it can take several hours of honing to achieve a bevel. I've had a few that took several days of on n off honing, before it was set for a progression.

The balloon test was for the barber. If he could consistently shave a balloon with a straight without popping it, he would achieve his certification in proper use and maintenance of straights. It teaches how light a touch it needs to shave, without irritation. Its not for testing an edges ability to cut.

I've been putting steel to stone for nearly 50 years, and almost 40 with straights. I learned to hone a knives, with rocks I picked off the ground, before I knew what a whet stone was. I learned to use a whet stone from a boy scout hand book. That's where I learned the X stroke.

The explanation in the hand book was.. lay the blade flat on hone, lift spine of knife off hone till you see the edge meet the hone, then act as your trying to cut a slice of cheese from the hone. Flip and repeat till edge starts to cut into a moistened thumb pad, by lightly pushing laterally along the edge. I learned how to not cut myself after several failures due to lack of knowledge.:gaah: But even then, and still is for most edged tools today.....Xstroke it. Even a smiling blade will take to an XStroke just as well as a straight blade. About all I can teach of honing by conversation. All the rest is just learning for yourself.

At least u have the internet for info, which might be too much. GSSIXGUNS (Glen) has great videos on razor honing, as well as Lynn Abrams, from the late..SRP/SRD

Id advise these gents videos for you. ( I prefer Glen over Lynn )
Once u have a basic understanding, it'll get easier. Stick with it, don't get discouraged. If it was easy.. we'd all be doing it. Some just can't comprehend it.
And yes...there's videos showing how to see how a bevel looks thru it's stages as it's totally set properly, showing uneven bevels n all.
Sorry, I have no link, or remember where I'd seen it.

You seem determined, so keep at it, it'll all come together with time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

This is a worn out practice razor.
Focusing on the initial bezel is the focus and whether this blade makes it to shave-ready would require advanced skills. So let's just use it to get the bevel right.

I'll re-tape it . I did the x strokes on the 1000. It's not ready for any balloon test. I'm a little lost.

How do you know the edge is perfect, neither over nor under honed?
Whether the angle is off by thousandths due to size is of no consequence.

I don't want to practice on some of the nicer and older blades in this bunch. I'm trying to learn edge. Then hone. Then strop.

Then I'll Polish a nice one before starting it all again.

---

When you are setting the bevel, using regular strokes without excessive pressure, it is not really easy to over hone at this point. Developing a burr or over honing at this point almost has to be intentional.
If you are developing a burr you are using too much pressure.

Keep an eye on the tape and make sure you do not go through! Your pressure can sort of be checked as you go in that one piece of tape will do till near finishing. That is, if you are working on a wonky razor and it takes a while to get the bevel you may have to change tape regularly. Once the bevel is set I would put on a fresh layer of tape to begin moving forward. On your next stone after only a few strokes check the edge. The new striations will be evident right at the edge and will clearly be a good sign for you. Use that layer of tape till you get to at least 8k then put a new one on to finish.

So, to know when you are done bevel setting: view the edge with a loupe and see that all striations get to the absolute edge of the razor along its full length. If yes, check the edge. If not, modify your stroke to reach the areas not contacted. This sounds easy and where a lot of problems will come from when learning. Makes sure your stones are flat - as stated!!

So now, all striations make it to the edge. Test either on a tomato skin (with no pressure drag the edge a few mm on the tomato and the skin should slice easily) check the entire edge for the same result.
Checking how the edge cuts arm hair at this point is what I use and probably most others. This will develop with practice to know what that should feel like. It will bite easily at the skin and will shave every hair in the way. It will feel sharp!

Once there, progress to finer stones by viewing the edge as before. Testing the edge at each stage is not necessary, but, making sure you reach the edge with every stone is!!

Once to 8k with a new layer of tape and some strokes try stropping and shaving. It should shave surprisingly well. If not, you have not completed your work to that point. Going further with higher grit will not help you. Ground work is the key.

Let us know when you get to that point.
Good luck.

I never understood the hanging roll of tape thing. I had a meet once and it came up. We all tried it and laughed our asses off! :rofl2:

I prefer to cut a length of tape and put it on. Much easier. Not to mention safer!

I have never understood it either!
It's not like it is difficult to cut to length.
Also much easy to apply by placing the razor onto the tape then the other way around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rolodave

Note: be careful. I know two extremely experienced and talented honers who both got 8 stitches just from taping

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This is exactly why you hang the roll of tape off the end of the razor while smoothing the tape along the spine...

I struggle to understand how someone could cut themselves while applying tape.

Cut tape to length,
Attachment 351480

apply to razor with blade facing up away from hand. If it is short cut another - you will know before applying.
Attachment 351481

Smooth down from the spine (note the tape is not smeared down tight in the middle).
When starting to round down over spine start in the middle and work outward till it is smooth and tight.

Attachment 351482

It is also much easier to center this way.

Hold up… don’t read further… some new posts came in and I’ll probably delete this…. **********************





So one more simple question as if I knew nothing and had no equipment except

Loupe
Old razor taped properly with no bubbles
1000 grit ceramic stone, little water
Time �� and patience

Maybe I’m missing something in all the piles of videos along the way

This above is ALL that’s needed to set the edge right? We don’t progress up the 3k for example yet. This blade hums on the 1k now. It didn’t when I started. I don’t see consistent scratches and no extra. It looks like a perfect triangle. I’ll keep going because it’s not as pretty at the outer edge.

Continue this step for hours? Hundreds of strokes? This is where I’m lost. That’s a lot of metal removal

Oh yeah, my stones lapped ok. Just a few scrubs and the pencil marks were gone. Edges are eased.

And thanks for patient guidance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

I struggle to understand how someone could cut themselves while applying tape.

Cut tape to length,
Attachment 351480

apply to razor with blade facing up away from hand. If it is short cut another - you will know before applying.
Attachment 351481

Smooth down from the spine (note the tape is not smeared down tight in the middle).
When starting to round down over spine start in the middle and work outward till it is smooth and tight.

Attachment 351482

It is also much easier to center this way.

---

Why would you "Center" the tape ??

Second your tape is bubbled and uneven

Third You probably tape maybe one razor a week I do about 40 so when it comes to tape I am very careful

You cut yourself by smoothing the tape along the spine rubbing it to heat it to form to the spine,,, especially curved and decorated spines... by hanging the tape over the nose and leaving it there while smoothing it creates a physical barrier to the edge

You asked why, I explained it, learn from our mistakes or learn from your own, choose wisely


Smooth and even, actually with multiple layers on this one
Proof of concept is seen with the even, straight bevel in the works

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scatterjoy

Hold up… don’t read further… some new posts came in and I’ll probably delete this…. **********************





So one more simple question as if I knew nothing and had no equipment except

Loupe
Old razor taped properly with no bubbles
1000 grit ceramic stone, little water
Time �� and patience

Maybe I’m missing something in all the piles of videos along the way

This above is ALL that’s needed to set the edge right? We don’t progress up the 3k for example yet. This blade hums on the 1k now. It didn’t when I started. I don’t see consistent scratches and no extra. It looks like a perfect triangle. I’ll keep going because it’s not as pretty at the outer edge.

Continue this step for hours? Hundreds of strokes? This is where I’m lost. That’s a lot of metal removal

Oh yeah, my stones lapped ok. Just a few scrubs and the pencil marks were gone. Edges are eased.

And thanks for patient guidance

---

You have the right idea,

What you need to figure out is YOUR bevel set Go-NoGo test

There are quite a few
They don't all work for everybnody so use them all until you get the outcome you need

TNT
TPT
4 -Finger test
AHT

Cutting stuff tests I don't use but some do
HHT

Figure out which one works for YOU everytime, not what other people tell you works for them

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Why would you "Center" the tape ??

Second your tape is bubbled and uneven

Third You probably tape maybe one razor a week I do about 40 so when it comes to tape I am very careful

You cut yourself by smoothing the tape along the spine rubbing it to heat it to form to the spine,,, especially curved and decorated spines... by hanging the tape over the nose and leaving it there while smoothing it creates a physical barrier to the edge

You asked why, I explained it, learn from our mistakes or learn from your own, choose wisely

---

Seems I have ruffled some feathers:) Didn't mean to but... I didn't ask why by the way.
Why not center it anyway- it doesn't really matter.
I noted the tape was not smeared down - you just didn't read it!
If you are cutting yourself from rubbing the tape in then what does a 1/4" to 1/2 in of tape hanging off the end have to do with it? Its not a barrier at all.

Yes, I'm sure you hone more than I do. If you get careless and in a hurry you will probably have an accident eventually.
Lets be serious here.
Accidents can of course happen but it has nothing to do with that tab of tape sticking out the end.
If you are taping with a roll of tape, a sharp razor and a knife or scissors in your hands at the same time then you will probably cut yourself eventually.
Carelessness, not a tab of tape is to blame.

When is the bevel set?? Man......this stumped me for ages. These pics really helped me to understand when the bevel is set (apex formed). Look directly down onto the edge with your loupe with a bright light on edge. When the bevel is set, no light will reflect off the edge. If light does reflect (sparklies), the bevel is not set at that spot.

Lots of light reflects off edge. No apex is formed. Bevel not set
Attachment 351485


After more honing we are closer to forming an apex, but not there yet. Light still reflects
Attachment 351486


More honing and no light reflecting off edge. Bevel is fully set. (tiny white dots are from lens)
Attachment 351487

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

Seems I have ruffled some feathers:) Didn't mean to but... I didn't ask why by the way.
Why not center it anyway- it doesn't really matter.
I noted the tape was not smeared down - you just didn't read it!
If you are cutting yourself from rubbing the tape in then what does a 1/4" to 1/2 in of tape hanging off the end have to do with it? Its not a barrier at all.

Yes, I'm sure you hone more than I do. If you get careless and in a hurry you will probably have an accident eventually.
Lets be serious here.
Accidents can of course happen but it has nothing to do with that tab of tape sticking out the end.
If you are taping with a roll of tape, a sharp razor and a knife or scissors in your hands at the same time then you will probably cut yourself eventually.
Carelessness, not a tab of tape is to blame.

---

Has nothing to do with a tab, try watching the vid you might actually learn a thing or two

If you are cutting yourself from rubbing the tape in then what does a 1/4" to 1/2 in of tape hanging off the end have to do with it? Its not a barrier at all.
That is your error, also what took Mark nearly 30 seconds to accomplish in the vid takes me less than 5 to do SAFELY every single time


I giggle when people are going to explain honing to me, I am try to help a newb out you are trying to explain how smart you THINK you are..

The idea that taping the center only, because it makes no difference,,, is possibly the dumbest thing I have read on here in some time, think it through before you argue more..


Proof is in the Pudding
Multiple layers of nice smooth tape, resulting in a nice even bevel in the making

https://i.imgur.com/IqA8S6n.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Bt6T9af.jpg

KISS principle in effect

There is probably no other factor that creates injury more than repetitive motion.
I remember years ago a buddy who worked in a furniture factory pumping hundreds of the same parts through the saw every day and he saw plenty.
No pun intended.
You get the point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Has nothing to do with a tab, try watching the vid you might actually learn a thing or two

If you are cutting yourself from rubbing the tape in then what does a 1/4" to 1/2 in of tape hanging off the end have to do with it? Its not a barrier at all.
That is your error, also what took Mark nearly 30 seconds to accomplish in the vid takes me less than 5 to do SAFELY every single time


I giggle when people are going to explain honing to me, I am try to help a newb out you are trying to explain how smart you THINK you are..

The idea that taping the center only, because it makes no difference,,, is possibly the dumbest thing I have read on here in some time, think it through before you argue more..


Proof is in the Pudding
Multiple layers of nice smooth tape, resulting in a nice even bevel in the making

https://i.imgur.com/IqA8S6n.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Bt6T9af.jpg

KISS principle in effect

---

WOW, nice response.
I suppose we all need to send our razors to you then as nobody else can hone a razor.
Ok then. I'm out.
For the record - nobody was trying to explain honing to you.
It was about putting tape on a razor safely but this is where you went.
Enjoy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

There is probably no other factor that creates injury more than repetitive motion.
I remember years ago a buddy who worked in a furniture factory pumping hundreds of the same parts through the saw every day and he saw plenty.
No pun intended.
You get the point.

---

Exactly why you should learn stupid safety tricks that help lessen that risk, especially when they cost NOTHING and come from others hard earned experience..

That is the point

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

WOW, nice response.
I suppose we all need to send our razors to you then as nobody else can hone a razor.
Ok then. I'm out.
For the record - nobody was trying to explain honing to you.
It was about putting tape on a razor safely but this is where you went.
Enjoy.

---

I'm sorry this bent you. But understand..better to teach good habits to someone as green as Scatterboy, than to have to brake them of bad ones.

We have to start at the very beginning.
Those of us that have been honing for years, seem to overlook what is natural for us. As an infant u were lucky to scootch around, before u could crawl, stand, wobble and fall, before u even took your first step.

That's honing, that's life. We have to start with the basics, before we can run with it.

Hone on.!!

HAR!
Why I never got into too many honing discussions.
As long as someone can shave proficiently and study a good shaver, it should be apparent what the end result should be.

How to get there is the deal. Every time a question is raised, everyone will have a different answer.
Next thing, bullshit gets called.

Then, every razor is different in some way.

Being a fly on the wall and deciding what to try will lead you to finding your own path and when to deviate for any corrections.
When it all comes together successfully in the end, you will have taught yourself anyway!

JMHO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

HAR!
Why I never got into too many honing discussions.
As long as someone can shave proficiently and study a good shaver, it should be apparent what the end result should be.

How to get there is the deal. Every time a question is raised, everyone will have a different answer.
Next thing, bullshit gets called.

Then, every razor is different in some way.

Being a fly on the wall and deciding what to try will lead you to finding your own path and when to deviate for any corrections.
When it all comes together successfully in the end, you will have taught yourself anyway!

JMHO

---

Exactly. That's the most common thing you'll abstract from most conversations pertaining to honing. Time, and doing it thru trial n error, with the knowledge u have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

WOW, nice response.
I suppose we all need to send our razors to you then as nobody else can hone a razor.
Ok then. I'm out.
For the record - nobody was trying to explain honing to you.
It was about putting tape on a razor safely but this is where you went.
Enjoy.

---

And correctly which you couldn't manage to do,

Ps: If all I wanted to do was hone your razors, it would behoove me to just STFU and let you all screw them up then charge more to fix them, instead of doing dozens of how to vids and helping newbs get started... Duhhhhhhh moment on your part, trying once again to ACT smart remember you started this BS.. So nice is out the door now


I have seen what some of you mange to do to razors within a few minutes, to the OP this is what a Knife guy did to a SR on his first attempt at honing without guidance...
At least you are smart enough to ask first

https://i.imgur.com/iQHfmzd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Azlisht.jpg

Wind chime.. :roflmao. I never did that.
I guess as I grew up learning how to sharpen things, It came a time to sharpen my broadheads for bow hunting, (didn't have the $ for replacement blades back then). That encounter taught me how difficult a straight was going to be, and the finesse that it might take, before I ever honed one. Funny though, I find them much easier to hone over a knife. Just for the point of the razor has is own geometry built-in for proper angle. I hone, stone in hand, over setting it on a table. Knives n such, I have to use muscle memory to hold the proper angle. No sharpening guides, here. All is done thru manipulation of stone and hand movements. Like using a steel, so to say.

As for razor honing, I like in hand because it acts as a gimbal for the hone. Any uneven pressure will cause the hone to move/shift and compensate to keep even pressure/torque throughout the pass.

Honing takes time, doing it right, even more, creating a comfortable shaving edge, some more. Too many of the want it yesterday, out there today. I came from, if you want it, learn for youseff. Ain'ts newbody gonna do it fir ya but youin