understanding a coticule....progress..

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10-24-2007, 10:15 AM
danzyc

understanding a coticule....progress..

hello people... my TI seems to be cut very well after several honing experiment.... i have understand this..

in the first time i have passed my TI for 80 laps on coticule wet without pressure but the coticule wet seems to be a real POLISH STONE..very little little progression in terms of cutting power...

second time : i have develop a slurry for the first time on my coticule 30 laps without pressure and 20 laps after without slurry......:y very good result! the slurry is a killing machine the razor now cut really well!!

i have understand that the slurry is neccessary for the cutting power...

what do you think about?
10-24-2007, 10:37 AM
AFDavis11

I have only used a coticule once and used a microscope examination of the edge as I progressed and your observation matched mine exactly.
10-24-2007, 11:08 AM
JoshEarl

I agree also. The edge left by the coticule with a slurry seems to be less sharp than the edge from plain coticule.

The slurry gets black quickly if you use a little pressure, too. :) Sometimes I'll use the coticule with a slurry to tame a razor that doesn't seem to want to get sharp otherwise. It's a nice weapon to keep in the arsenal. :)

Josh
10-24-2007, 03:00 PM
Abscissa

I have 3 coticules and they definitely need a thick, heavy slurry to achieve a sharp edge that shaves smooth. No slurry or to thin a slurry gives me an edge that is somewhere between 5 or 6k. With slurry is is about 10k.
10-24-2007, 03:39 PM
heavydutysg135

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abscissa

I have 3 coticules and they definitely need a thick, heavy slurry to achieve a sharp edge that shaves smooth. No slurry or to thin a slurry gives me an edge that is somewhere between 5 or 6k. With slurry is is about 10k.

This has not been my experience. For me the slurry cuts faster and leaves a slightly courser scratch pattern than the coticule with no slurry, but the coticule with no slurry leaves a slightly more polished edge. I definately would not rate a coticule with no slurry at 5K or 6K, it would probably be more like 10-12K for me. For what it is worth, Allen at Ross Cutlery (a longtime honemeister for all types of knifes and straight razors) only uses coticules without slurry to get shave ready edges. Just my .02
10-24-2007, 03:53 PM
danzyc

how many minutes should i submerge the coticule in the water before honing? (for protect my razor of possibily hairlines because the hone dry faster)
10-24-2007, 04:13 PM
Abscissa

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

This has not been my experience. For me the slurry cuts faster and leaves a slightly courser scratch pattern than the coticule with no slurry, but the coticule with no slurry leaves a slightly more polished edge. I definately would not rate a coticule with no slurry at 5K or 6K, it would probably be more like 10-12K for me. For what it is worth, Allen at Ross Cutlery (a longtime honemeister for all types of knifes and straight razors) only uses coticules without slurry to get shave ready edges. Just my .02

I'm still a little puzzled about the different experiences people get when they use the coticule with or without slurry. Is it the coticules that differes or the people who use them and different technique we use? I did read about Allan who did not developed a slurry before starting honing but his stone was also quite narow and he did something like a hundred strokes? The only thing I can conclude is that the slurry is comming naturally from all these strokes but that is only true if he doesn't clean the stone in the middle of honing.

How much water do you guys use, how soft/hard are your stones, how many strokes? It seems to me that a soft stone and a little water will naturally develop a dense slurry when honing.

Or maybe some stones works better with or without slurry? I don't now, but a clear answer will be great, yet difficult, if not impossible, to come up with, I think.
10-24-2007, 05:18 PM
izlat

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzyc

how many minutes should i submerge the coticule in the water before honing? (for protect my razor of possibily hairlines because the hone dry faster)

Hm, that's the first time I hear about submerging a coticule :shrug:

The normal practice is to sprikle some water, use (or not!) a slurry stone and hone away. You can even leave slurry on stone after use to dry, just re-wet before next use

Cheers
Ivo
10-24-2007, 05:49 PM
heavydutysg135

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzyc

how many minutes should i submerge the coticule in the water before honing? (for protect my razor of possibily hairlines because the hone dry faster)

A coticule does not need to be soaked at all before it is used because it is not a porous stone. Just wet the stone, create a slurry if you desire, and hone away. Another advantage of using a coticule is that they will not "load" because the surface is constantly being refreshed as you hone.
10-24-2007, 11:46 PM
karkarta

Your coticule survived 480 million years of thermal cycles, moisture cycles, seismic activity and what not before it came to you as a sharpening stone. Only its shape changed, i.e., it was cut and polished. It will survive your moisture cycles with ease.

Artificial stones are fundamentally just abrasives suspended in clay (or some matrix) with a bonding agent; the bonding agent is what fails with temperature and humidity cycles causing hairline cracks. The bonding agent for your coticule was geothermal heat, which fused clay and garnet together, and that isn't gonna fail anytime soon.:)

And as others have said, coticules aren't porous, so there's no point soaking them.
10-25-2007, 12:56 AM
AFDavis11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abscissa

I'm still a little puzzled about the different experiences people get when they use the coticule with or without slurry. Is it the coticules that differes or the people who use them and different technique we use? I did read about Allan who did not developed a slurry before starting honing but his stone was also quite narow and he did something like a hundred strokes? The only thing I can conclude is that the slurry is comming naturally from all these strokes but that is only true if he doesn't clean the stone in the middle of honing.

How much water do you guys use, how soft/hard are your stones, how many strokes? It seems to me that a soft stone and a little water will naturally develop a dense slurry when honing.

Or maybe some stones works better with or without slurry? I don't now, but a clear answer will be great, yet difficult, if not impossible, to come up with, I think.

I use a Norton 8K exclusively, not because I think its the best hone but because I'm just that good! :)

Please don't confuse what one of us does with one hone, with what we should do with any other hone. Every type of hone is very different, despite my past comments that "a stone is a stone" they cut with a variety of speeds, depth, and striation interval.
10-25-2007, 01:42 AM
Lynn

Hi Guys,

I think the Coticule with a Slurry is around 8K or so (Zowada may have tested this out).......but with just water around 10-12K. The most inconsistent thing with regard to honing is the pressure and the number of strokes. For what it's worth I still believe that less strokes are better and that virtually no pressure works the best. These are the two largest variables other than the stones. I went for a long time with just the Norton 4K/8K and got some fantastic edges and shaves. The search for the nirvana edge and shave is really what makes me experiment with all the rest of the stones and stuff.

Have fun.

Lynn
10-25-2007, 08:33 AM
Abscissa

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I use a Norton 8K exclusively, not because I think its the best hone but because I'm just that good! :)

Please don't confuse what one of us does with one hone, with what we should do with any other hone. Every type of hone is very different, despite my past comments that "a stone is a stone" they cut with a variety of speeds, depth, and striation interval.

I wasn't trying to tell you how to use your stones – in fact, I think if you can get a great shave with a razor you have honed – slurry or nu slurry – then it must be the correct way for you and I se no reason to change. I'm merely saying that I get a better result (shaving) when using slurry on my coticules but I think it is interesting that other people have totally opposite results – and I'm only talking about the shave test, not the hht or tpt or anything else.

Martin
10-25-2007, 09:43 AM
AFDavis11

Lynn is absolutely correct about the grit estimate, number of strokes (less is better), and pressure.

I hope the Allan your referring to is the one at Ross Cutlery.

I think guys that do 100 strokes on a finishing hone are simply wacko nuts! :)
10-25-2007, 10:29 AM
Abscissa

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Lynn is absolutely correct about the grit estimate, number of strokes (less is better), and pressure.

I hope the Allan your referring to is the one at Ross Cutlery.

I think guys that do 100 strokes on a finishing hone are simply wacko nuts! :)

I think we both misunderstanding our points because I very much agree with you, Alan. Maybe my translation from Danish to English is not perfct. I'm not used to write in English and that's why I don't participate much here.

The 100 stroke thing had nothing to do with you and the Norton. I was referring to this post that heavydutysg135 was talking about regarding the slurry thing: http://straightrazorpalace.com/showp...1&postcount=78 and especially this:

“For a new razor he told me that as a rule he would do 100 passes which he would count in his head and then assess the blade sharpness from there. If he felt that the blade was not quite sharp enough he would do another 20-30 passes then assess the blade again. He did not use any slurry with the stone and when I asked him about this he told me that the razor would generate enough slurry on its own; creating a slurry with another piece of coticule would work well but just cause unnecessary wear of the stone.”

Sorry about the all the confusion.

Martin
10-25-2007, 10:33 AM
AFDavis11

No problem, it was my fault.
10-25-2007, 10:56 PM
poona

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzyc

hello people... my TI seems to be cut very well after several honing experiment.... i have understand this..

in the first time i have passed my TI for 80 laps on coticule wet without pressure but the coticule wet seems to be a real POLISH STONE..very little little progression in terms of cutting power...

second time : i have develop a slurry for the first time on my coticule 30 laps without pressure and 20 laps after without slurry......:y very good result! the slurry is a killing machine the razor now cut really well!!

i have understand that the slurry is neccessary for the cutting power...

what do you think about?

Yes, a coticule with slurry is quite the neccessity.