Honing with a smile.

So, I had a thread going about my first honing attempt. Neither it nor I survived the great catastrophe, but here we go again...

I actually have good news to report. It seems I'm getting the hang of the rolling hone, as I [I]believe[I] I'm starting to get rid of the double bevel on the stubborn side of my razor. As best I can describe it, the bit where the two bevels meet is getting "fuzzy". I assume this means I'm finally starting to remove metal where the two bevels meet and am on my way to a single bevel all the way across the edge. (There's a little segment in the middle that's already good.)

I want to thank everyone who gave advice on "First hone plan" and ask if the fuzziness means to just keep doing what I'm doing or if I should be moving on in anyway.

-Josh

Who are you? . . .







Just Kidding.



I've forgotten what you had available but you might use a polishing stone, like the 8k and do about 10 passes and then see how much of the bevel is polished. This'll immediately tell you where your at.

Woohoo! Is the edge getting sharp enough to cut
hairs off your arm? You may have some more
work to go to get that even bevel, so keep truckin!

- Scott

Welcome back, josh.
Sounds to me like you're on the right track.
+1 on Alan's advice.
I guess it's time to start doing the TumbNailTest (TNT)
Drag the edge over your moistened thumbnail, as if you were going to cut in it (that is: if you were to use enough pressure) Use only the weight of the blade and draw it slowly across the nail. If your bevel is okay, it should feel smooth, but "sticky". Sticky means that you should feel some drag coming from the blade as it cuts in the outer layer of your thumbnail. You should notice a fine scratch on your nail after the test. If it's just smooth without "sticky"-ness, then your bevel isn't keen enough yet. That means more 4000. If it sticks you can start polishing the bevel on a finishing stone (8000).
If there are tiny chips or other imperfections in your edge, the test will reveal them. The blade won't be gliding in a smooth fashion in such cases.

Once you get there and you decide to start polishing on a Norton 8000: don't do too many laps! I don't own a Norton myself (I use the Belgian stones), but I've read many posts that warn how easy it is to overhone on a Norton. If you're like me, you'll have to fight an urge to do 20 laps more, and after that, another 20, and after that a very last 20, and after that, a very very last 20, and after that... while in the process thinking that your edge will become sharper with every additional 2O laps. I guess some of us are brought up with the notion that the harder one works, the better the results and the greater the reward will be. That doesn't count for honing, as for some other things in life that I can think of, for instance, typing answers to questions asked by fellow straight razor shavers and lingering on endlessly about honing and the philosophy lesson it carries. How ultimately boring would that be? :hmmm:

Have fun and good luck,
Bart.

Thanks, guys. :)

Sebell: Nope! But that's cool. I'm okay with slow progress - it's lots better then nothing changing.

Alan: I have a 220/1k and a 4k/8k, both Nortons. A little polishing for visibility sounds like a good idea.

Bart: That's the best description of that test I've read so far.

I've still got a long way to go, I think, but I'm freshly encouraged.

Honing with a smile...Hmm...Isn't that kind of like whistling while you work?:w

After some laps on the 8k, the side of the razor that doesn't have the double bevel looks nice and smooth. It's almost blackish? I think that side polished up nicely. The other side has much more visible scratching, etc. My current guess is that the 2x bevel side is getting close, but still doesn't have a consistent bevel. It's almost as if the stone is right now hitting the spot where they meet, so it can't polish most of the edge. I feel like it could be 10 laps or 100 laps, but eventually (and probably suddenly) it'll become one. At least across most the blade. :)

On the poor side try using the magic marker trick. Then you will see where you hones are touching the edge. It will help you to modify your honing stroke.

The marker test tells me that I have a slightly harder time hitting the heel and toe of the main bevel. (I say main to describe the bevel I want, the larger one closer to the spine.) But the entire main bevel is clean of marker after 5 passes or so. The secondary bevel stubbornly persists on nearly all of that side. I know there are tons of unknowns and variables, but if you had the worst double bevel you've ever seen, can anyone predict how many laps on 1k it should take? I'm just trying to get a really rough ballpark. If I've already done twice what people estimate, then I think I'll have to send this to Alan or someone. I'll try and hone it up when it dulls from shaving.

Also, :OT why the hell won't my cat stop trying to sniff the Olive wood scales?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

Also, :OT why the hell won't my cat stop trying to sniff the Olive wood scales?!

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I wonder if it smells anything like Dogwood. Dogwood is almost like catnip to cats. I have a few slices of a branch that keeps my cats mesmerized... after a week or so I give them (the Dogwood disks, not the cats) a quick shot on the disk sander to revive the scent.

And no, I don't mean you should take your Olive wood scales to the disk sander to keep your cat happy! :D

Christian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

The marker test tells me that I have a slightly harder time hitting the heel and toe of the main bevel. (I say main to describe the bevel I want, the larger one closer to the spine.) But the entire main bevel is clean of marker after 5 passes or so. The secondary bevel stubbornly persists on nearly all of that side. I know there are tons of unknowns and variables, but if you had the worst double bevel you've ever seen, can anyone predict how many laps on 1k it should take? I'm just trying to get a really rough ballpark. If I've already done twice what people estimate, then I think I'll have to send this to Alan or someone. I'll try and hone it up when it dulls from shaving.

Also, :OT why the hell won't my cat stop trying to sniff the Olive wood scales?!

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You should be focusing on the edge bevel, not the spine.

Regarding the 1K, you should see significant progress after 100 laps, if not then something else needs to be changed.

What kind of 1K are you using? A Norton, sandpaper, ????
Let us know,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

You should be focusing on the edge bevel, not the spine.

Regarding the 1K, you should see significant progress after 100 laps, if not then something else needs to be changed.

What kind of 1K are you using? A Norton, sandpaper, ????
Let us know,

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I'm using a 1k Norton. I have lapped it with a granite tile and sandpaper. Perhaps I should try lapping again?

I'm a little confused by your statement about focusing on the edge bevel. I know my razor vocabulary is poor, so maybe it sounds like I'm talking about hone wear on the spine? I basically think of this process as trying to extend one bevel all the way to the edge, erasing the other one. Maybe this is a poor way of thinking about it that is somehow effecting what I'm doing?

-Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

I'm using a 1k Norton. I have lapped it with a granite tile and sandpaper. Perhaps I should try lapping again?

I'm a little confused by your statement about focusing on the edge bevel. I know my razor vocabulary is poor, so maybe it sounds like I'm talking about hone wear on the spine? I basically think of this process as trying to extend one bevel all the way to the edge, erasing the other one. Maybe this is a poor way of thinking about it that is somehow effecting what I'm doing?

-Josh

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Yes, it sounds like you are might be talking about spine wear. I hope that is not the case. The only bevel we care about is the one on the edge of the razor. Then that bevel should extend all the way to the edge of the razor.. The scratch pattern should be unifom for the full length of the edge from heel to toe and width of the bevel.

The 1K Norton is rather slow. Try lapping it again, lightly, then place it under running water and rub off any loose material. This will "refresh" the cutting surface of the hone.

Are we talking about a razor that is warped, a razor with a "smile", a W&B full wedge?

What width are your Norton's?

In the previous thread about this razor (which
was lost), he indicated that he was honing a
razor with a slight smile. I believe it was a full
hollow, or nearly so.

Under magnification Josh is seeing what appears
to be a double bevel, and his honing was seem-
ingly not touching the final edge of the blade.

I'll step back at this point because I don't have
a lot of experience with either smiling razors or
double bevels ;)

- Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sebell

In the previous thread about this razor (which
was lost), he indicated that he was honing a
razor with a slight smile. I believe it was a full
hollow, or nearly so.

Under magnification Josh is seeing what appears
to be a double bevel, and his honing was seem-
ingly not touching the final edge of the blade.

I'll step back at this point because I don't have
a lot of experience with either smiling razors or
double bevels ;)

- Scott

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Thanks Scott:)

OK, if one side is fine then concentrate on the other bad side and let us know if there is any progress. Check every 50 laps and stop at 150 laps. Then make a post here and tell us whats happening with the bevel.

When honing be sure to use some pressure and have the weight distribution more on the edge than the spine, in other words put some torque on the blade edge.

Thank you Scott, I think you summed that up much nicer then I could have. :)

Thank you as well Randy, for all the advice. For the record, I was trying to describe the two "parts" of the double bevel, not referring to spine wear. The Norton's I believe are 3x8, though I'm at work so I can't measure them just now. (They cover just about the entire razor.)

I will try my best to do what you describe above. You preemptively answered my question about torque, but I have one last one before I hone and report back. When you say "concentrate on one side" does that mean completely ignore the other side? Or maybe do two laps on one for every lap on the other?

-Josh

Get back to work. No, seriously though, I recently
got an ebay special to practice honing on. I'm
brand new at this, so take my advice with a grain
of salt. Anyway, the bevel on one side didn't
equal the bevel on the other side, so I concentrated
honing only one side until I got the desired result.
Then I went to the pyramid working both sides like
you normally would. It worked out good and I
got a sharp edge, so I don't see the problem of
working only one side for a while. I would wait to
hear from Randy or someone else before proceeding.
I'll be interested in their take. Good luck and happy honing.

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

You should be focusing on the edge bevel, not the spine.

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I too, am following this thread silently, because this thing kind of went out of my league.
Randy, I don't think Josh was concentrating on the spine. His razor has a double bevel. The way Josh sees the edge after the Magic Marker Test, he sees the primary bevel cleaned up. That's the bevel closest to the spine. The secondary bevel is still marked. That's the bevel closer to the outer edge. Obviously, both bevels sit right next to each other on the very edge of the blade. Anyway, when Josh talked about the bevel near the spine, that's what I made of it.

It is called "primary bevel", Josh. As you progress honing on the 1K, it will broaden, till the point where the secondary bevel will be completely gone.

My next point is a question to me also: if you hone a lot more on the double bevel side of the blade, by the time you reached a single pane on that side, I think there's a big chance that you'll end up with an uneven bevel. I mean that the sides of the bevel won't meet at the middle anymore. The side you honed the most will be larger then the side you honed less. I have no idea how big the difference will be, nor do I know how that will affect the keenness of your edge. Maybe it makes sense to keep honing both sides, to maintain a symmetrical bevel? I really don't know. Randy will have to answer that one.

I only hope I haven't add to the confusion with posting this.

Keep at it, Josh. You'll get there eventually, and will have learned a great deal when you do. I noticed on another thread that you decided to buy a second, prehoned razor. It takes a wise man to swallow his pride by doing a just thing. Cheers for you. You'll end up with two superb shavers. I'm sure of it.

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

Thank you Scott, I think you summed that up much nicer then I could have. :)

Thank you as well Randy, for all the advice. For the record, I was trying to describe the two "parts" of the double bevel, not referring to spine wear. The Norton's I believe are 3x8, though I'm at work so I can't measure them just now. (They cover just about the entire razor.)

I will try my best to do what you describe above. You preemptively answered my question about torque, but I have one last one before I hone and report back. When you say "concentrate on one side" does that mean completely ignore the other side? Or maybe do two laps on one for every lap on the other?

-Josh

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Just work on the one problem side until the double bevel is gone. Then resume honing on both sides.
Thats what I would do but I am an expedient type of guy. You could work both sides if you wish.
You might want to note that when a person first starts this honing obsession thing that we can get carried away with the theoretical side and we over engineer the solution. Uneven bevels, wether on one side or both, are not a big deal. A shaving sharp edge is our goal. Lets keep that in mind.

Bart: I decided that all this learning-to-hone stuff is great - and enjoyable in it's own way (much less a chance of cuts!) - but I really am eager to get to the shaving. The dream is that when I get my current razor shave ready, my technique will already have some practice. That way a shave test will actually test the razor, and not my technique. Thanks for the encouragement!

Randy: You and I seem to be on the same page philosophically. It can be fun to get really analytical and technical on it, but lots of times it's probably overkill. I'll worry about the details down the road when I'm much better (hopefully!) at all things shaving.

I'll put in those laps tonight and hopefully have some good news later.
-Josh

I did the 150 laps as Randy suggested, trying to torque the edge into the stone a bit and also do a slight rolling hone to get the stubborn heel and toe. Still a double bevel along a good 2/3 - 3/4 of the blade. I wish it was easier to measure or mark it somehow. I <i>think</i> the second bevel is shrinking but it's almost impossible for me to say so. I'm thinking maybe I'll try putting a piece of tape where I consider the second bevel to fade into the edge and seeing if that divider moves. I'm also thinking maybe this is an indicator that it's time for a honemeister.

Are you using an X pattern stroke?

There is something really odd about this.

Randy was generous enough to have me call him and we talked about my razor, hones, and technique for a bit. He's described a pretty interesting technique for me to try that will work if I can be careful enough. Hopefully I'll have some time this weekend that I can hone during. I will post with my progress as soon as I can.

Also, Randy has exactly the kind of voice that straight razor shaver should have. Kind of like a cooler Wilford Brimley. I sound much more like a 12 year old - so jealous.

-Josh

Thanks, for updating us on the latest developments. You sure got me very curious about that "pretty interesting technique". I hope that it's not one of those well kept secrets that US government prohibits revealing to the rest of the world...:rolleyes:

So Randy has a voice that can strop a razor just by talking to it, eh?
That explains it all, of course. :D

Good luck with the secret honing job,
Keep us posted,

Bart.

No secret, just round the edges of the hone then hone using only the rounded edge with a very light pressure. His razor is warped and the concave side was not making contact with the hone surface. This is the most expedient method for him.

According to the USPS, the shave-ready razor I bought from a member arrived this morning. I should have time tonight to try the new honing technique and visually compare with the sharp razor.

Unfortunately, I shaved this morning and with the TGQ soap I actually get a pretty close shave from the Mach 3, so a test shave will have to wait. But, that gives me a little more time to possibly get the difficult razor ready for it's true test.

-Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

I actually get a pretty close shave from the Mach 3

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:rant::rant:DON'T SWEAR IN THE CURCH:rant::rant:
Even as we speak, a posse, lead by Lynn, is being formed to hunt you down and wash your mouth with lather...
;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

:rant::rant:DON'T SWEAR IN THE CURCH:rant::rant:
Even as we speak, a posse, lead by Lynn, is being formed to hunt you down and wash your mouth with lather...

---

Gah! I meant a pretty close shave for a Mach 3. I swear the stubble must have been a inch long. Honest! Please don't burn my house down...

But this is all besides the point. The honing is working!!! :y It's still got a while to go, because I'm using the 4k and this technique is slower to begin with, but it's working. There is definitely a larger portion that has one bevel and that part is starting to become visibly more refined and smooth. If it keeps going like it's going, I'll be able to test it tomorrow after I try out my Henckels. Of course, no matter what razor I use...now I have to learn how to shave. :eek:

Sounds good! Keep on going...easy does it on the pressure.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

The honing is working!!! :y...now I have to learn how to shave. :eek:

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Cheers for you. :) In many decades, oldtimers will still tell a story about a famous honemeister that, in his young years, learned to hone before he even learned to shave. Most of the newbies in that future era will shake their heads and think it's some urban legend that those crazy old fools are tale-telling.
You and I will be in our 90's by then, and we will know better, as we visit the grave of the late but great Randy, to whom we have to thank everything. (No offense intended Randy, may you live a long and prosperous life:bow)

But, yeah, you need to go learning how to shave, right now. Unless you want to take a shot at cooking your own shaving soap first, after which you can go hunting the white buffalo. I hear the leather offers the very best quality strops...
:rolleyes:

But enough craziness. You did well. You picked a direction, your very own, I might add, and you sticked by it till you got results. That sounds too me like the right wood species to cut out a fine straight razor user. If I may help with some advice: keep the angle of the razor as flat as possible. Lift it up just enough so it cuts whiskers. Later you'll learn to fool around with the angle a bit more. And secondly: use only very light pressure, much less than you're probably used to with the M3.
Keep those two things in mind, use a sharp razor, and you'll be fine during your first shave.

Best of luck,
Bart.

Gotta love this thread.

Josh, best of luck to you. I doubt I could hone
a warped blade such as yours, which sounds
as if it is actually warped and not a nice smiling
blade.

I can't wait to hear how to get along with your
first shave!

- Scott

Bart, that is absolutely hilarious. I still have a bunch of work to do before the razor is sharp enough, but once it is I'm gonna skin that buffalo with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

On the poor side try using the magic marker trick. Then you will see where you hones are touching the edge. It will help you to modify your honing stroke.

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Exactly what Randy said.

This is an excellent tip for knowing when you're down to a single uniform bevel.

I just completed my first entire straight shave! I used the Henckels (the double-bevel is a Geisen & Forsthoff btw) and I'm pretty pleased. I got one teeny-tiny nick on my left cheek - though I never felt it and it only bled one drop. Closeness definitely needs work but I only did one pass so I didn't expect much. It's good enough for me to go to work tomorrow - although I'm a software engineer so that's not saying much. :P I'm pretty impressed with the lack of irritation. I assume that means the razor maintained its shave-readiness through transit? Anyhow, I can finally begin the shaving journey as well.

The G&F made decent progress, but there's still a little bit of double bevel, mostly near the heel and toe. Plus I need to do a bunch of work smoothing the edge that I've now got mostly exposed to the hone. I'm very excited.

Outstanding. Congratulations.

Your doing well!:)