Norton roughness, chips, edge shredding, micro chipping

Let's talk about the Norton embedded grit problem (aka Norton roughness, chips, edge shredding, microchipping, grit, grittiness, edge damage, etc)



Here's a copy of my email to Norton:

This is regarding a new Norton 4000/8000 waterstone... which I was advised is currently the benchmark in waterstones. The stone gets embedded with coarse grit from lapping (or the stone contains a coarse grit). The grit is far coarser than 4000 or 8000 and causes severe damage when using the stone. The embedded grit is not completely removable. I have spent m-a-n-y hours thoroughly, systematically and methodically eliminating other potential causes... it is unequivocally and without question the Norton stone. This stone has cost me many hours in restoring damage that it has caused (i.e.: chipping to precision edges, as viewed under a microscope). A replacement would be appreciated as I've heard that the symptom I'm experiencing is not an isolated incident. Thanks for your help.



Here are some historical threads on SRP regarding the Norton problem:

"Norton Roughness" by rustyblade
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...rton+roughness

"Pitted Norton 4000 water stone" by Oo.Mark.oO
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...ghlight=pitted

"Pockmarked Norton 4000" by smythe
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showthread.php?t=16072

"'feel' of the Norton 8k" by Bruno
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...shredding+edge

"Norton's shredding my edge" by JoshEarl
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...shredding+edge

"My Norton saga continues" by JoshEarl
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...highlight=pits

"Norton 8000... has this happened to any of you guys?" by coully
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showthread.php?t=6843



Some techniques I've used to eliminate the Norton as cause of the embedded grit symptom: L-o-t-s of water, 3m sandpaper, Norton sandpaper, 320 grit, 400 grit, 600 grit, 1500 grit, changing sandpaper frequently, light pressure, no pressure, lapping figure 8s, lapping circles, scotchbrite scrubbing, finger rubbing (until bleeding I might add), more rinsing with lots of water, frequent microscoping of edge when honing, grit picking, clearing stone of grit with backhoning, lapping with Kitayama, reading just about every post on SRP regarding this problem, watching Lynn's dvd repeatedly, using the Kitayama as the comparison stone throughout testing (as a 'control'), and last but not least... this post.

I have not used the Norton lapping stone - but the fact that the Kitayama tolerates sandpaper lapping without issue suggests the Norton should too.

I will post as Norton replies... until (or if) this is resolved I'll backhone with 1500 wet sandpaper on a marble tile and then final hone on a 12k Kitayama waterstone (which works quite well).

I wonder what true percentage of the Norton stones demonstrate this symptom... either way - please vote on this poll.

The main problem I has was little tiny bits of grit in the 4k sides (and very occasionnaly onthe 8k side) - all of this was remedies by rubbing the stone with my hand under water after I finished lapping it.

Mark

I don't know if this has ever been talked about- and it's just an idea mind you- but maybe sandpaper should NOT be used to lap a synthetic stone such as the Nortons? I use a DMT and have not had any problems whatsoever. Even particals from honing have not harmed my work. The stone definitely gets colored, even after rinsing, but I still haven't had problems. I'm guessing Norton would not recommend sandpaper, but that could just be to push their own product. Just a thought!

I use the Norton lapping stone...so???

Mark

Mark (Milton Man),

Am I to understand that you have experienced the Norton embedded grit problem from using a Norton lapping stone?

Precisely - it somehow left either small grit or just very rough. Either way, rubbing the palm of my hand over the stone under running water eliminated the problem all together.

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milton Man

Precisely - it somehow left either small grit or just very rough. Either way, rubbing the palm of my hand over the stone under running water eliminated the problem all together.

Mark

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+1

I usually follow the lapping stone with a few light passes on 800 or 1000 grit paper. Then I use a scotchbrite pad to remove any residual grit. As stated, your hand works too.

Jordan

Mark (Milton Man) & Jordan (jnich67)

It is quite interesting that you've experienced the Norton grit problem from Norton 's own lapping stone, albeit an easily resolved problem for you.

I have been unable to completely remove the grit despite the following:
...clearing strokes with an old razor
...backhoning (or honing for that matter)
...rinsing copiously
...finger rubbing till bleeding
...scotchbrite scrubbing till shredded
...cursing loudly till satisfied

Many times the stone seemed to be clear of grit... I'd get the razor to the point of a nearly correct edge... I'd go for that last bit and... WHAM - hit a piece of grit that chips the blade's edge so bad that 1/4 of the bevel has to be removed! ...my blood is boiling just to think of it.

I suspect that I may not be alone in this regard.

It might be a defective hone. My first Norton had impurities in the 8K side that would chip out the edge every time it hit them. They were very good to deal with--sent me a replacement without delay.

Josh

I do not know if this will help but what happened to me was similar in one regard. I would be honing along just fine and then wham! I would hit a piece of grit. I finally figured out that the water I was dunking my hone in was dirty! So I switched to using a spray bottle of water to keep my hone wet and to wash off the surface occasionally.

Randy,

Thanks for the feedback.

I've probably used hundreds of gallons of fresh clean water in assessing the Norton stone. I use a cutting board over the kitchen sink to provide a steady stream of clean fresh H2O when lapping, honing, cleaning, etc.... when I say rinsing with copious amounts of water - I mean rinsing with copious amounts of water.

Keep it coming.




PS: To all: If you are reading this and you have not voted at the top of this page - please do so!




.

Hi Guys,

I'm on either my 7th or 8th Norton 4K/8K Combo and continue to use one daily. I have honed thousands of razors on them. I eventually wear them out with no 4K side left. I have used sandpaper, pumice stones, the Norton flattening stone and the Shapton Diamond flattening stone on them to clean and lap.

One thing I have noticed on the newer stones is that I need to lap a bit further down on them to remove the courser feeling and get the smoother feeling 4K side. Never had any problems with the 8K side other than metal build up, but I lap after every one or two sessions.

Have fun,

Lynn

I have a Norton 220/1k, 4k/8k and the Norton Lapping stone.. I guess I'm just lucky, but I have had absolutly no problems with grit, after lapping, I just wipe the stones with my hand, under running water, and BAM on to honing... Like Lynn I lap every session but I definatly do not have as many sessions as he does :) I average 5 razors between lapping, and maybe I'm wearing out the stone early, I don't know only time will tell.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adjustme69

Hi Guys,

I'm on either my 7th or 8th Norton 4K/8K Combo and continue to use one daily. I have honed thousands of razors on them. I eventually wear them out with no 4K side left.

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Hey Lynn,

In that case, would it make sense for you to stop using the combo stones and just get a 4k, or is the straight 4k different from the 4k side of the combo?

-Bill

Lynn and gssixgun,

Thanks for the feedback fellas.

Sounds like you two are part of the ~68% (as of this moment) that got the good Norton stones. I happen to belong to the other 32% of consumers surveyed. Did you fellas remember to vote in the poll at the top of the page?


Just to clarify: the grit sensation experienced with the Norton embedded grit problem is relatively quite distinct, and crisp, and abrupt, and violent... when it happens there is no mistaking it ...SLAM into grit!!! It is especially evident when the edge is viewed under magnification - EXTREME damage. The stone may have only a single piece of grit or it may have many dozens. It is not, and is in no way mistakable for (at least with magnification) any type of 'courser' layer of the stone that lapping might resolve. These pieces of grit cause catastrophic edge damage that is not visible to the naked eye. A 10x loupe will just barely detect the chips and edge damage. It's sad really, because when it's working, the Norton works extremely good - superlative in fact.

It is indeed possible to 'shave' with a razor after honing with a defective Norton, it's just that you will suffer a most grievous and heinous shave ...I promise.



***** Please vote in poll at the top of page ******



.

I just bought the 4k/8k combo about two
weeks ago and have had no problems with
it after lapping with the Norton flattening stone.
I'm happy with it and I did vote in the poll.

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by piervinc

Hey Lynn,

In that case, would it make sense for you to stop using the combo stones and just get a 4k, or is the straight 4k different from the 4k side of the combo?

-Bill

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Convenience when I'm honing. Don't have to get up and get the other stone.....:w

Lynn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forzato

Lynn and gssixgun,

Thanks for the feedback fellas.

Sounds like you two are part of the ~68% (as of this moment) that got the good Norton stones. I happen to belong to the other 32% of consumers surveyed. Did you fellas remember to vote in the poll at the top of the page?


Just to clarify: the grit sensation experienced with the Norton embedded grit problem is relatively quite distinct, and crisp, and abrupt, and violent... when it happens there is no mistaking it ...SLAM into grit!!! It is especially evident when the edge is viewed under magnification - EXTREME damage. The stone may have only a single piece of grit or it may have many dozens. It is not, and is in no way mistakable for (at least with magnification) any type of 'courser' layer of the stone that lapping might resolve. These pieces of grit cause catastrophic edge damage that is not visible to the naked eye. A 10x loupe will just barely detect the chips and edge damage. It's sad really, because when it's working, the Norton works extremely good - superlative in fact.

It is indeed possible to 'shave' with a razor after honing with a defective Norton, it's just that you will suffer a most grievous and heinous shave ...I promise.



***** Please vote in poll at the top of page ******



.

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Is there a quest in here somewhere...........

:thinking:

Lynn

Lynn,

Indeed there is an important quest here. As our fearless founder I'm sure you'd agree.

This quest is especially important because the Norton 4k/8k is generally looked upon as the benchmark stone for razor honing. So upon using the Norton if 1 in 4 newbies gets frustrated and quits straight razors because of the Norton stone... well that's not we want is it?

The quest is two-fold:

1) to determine the odds of getting a properly working Norton waterstone so that (especially the newbie) can make an intelligent purchase decision

2) if the defective % is significant (which it seems to be thus far at 25%) then Norton will be advised so that perhaps they can fix the problem

Make sense?

Thanks again for all the feedback.





* * * TO ALL: PLEASE VOTE IN POLL ABOVE * * *






.

Forzato, the title of your thread attracts comment from members who have had such problems. No poll's methodology is perfect, but this one's really whacked if it's leading you to conclude that 25% of Norton hones – the standard around here – are, when used properly, shredding and chipping edges.

Also there's the question of severity. What a lot of people including me have experienced is a bit of grit from dirty water or cheap sandpaper or whatever getting embedded, a problem they've identified and resolved by using scotch brite pads, quality sandpaper (or a lapping stone/DMT), and lots of water. Really taking care to properly chamfer the edges of the stone. Yes, grit seems to more easily embed itself in a Norton than in say a coticule. But once diagnosed the problem is very easily solved.

I'm not going to fill out your survey with this, though, because then you'll be saying fully 1/3 of Nortons are shredding edges.;) :D

Your Norton sounds very unusual in the severity of its problem. From what I can tell only Josh experienced this, and his defective hone was replaced no questions asked. You should consider doing the same. If you're not quite sure if yours is really defective or if you might be overlooking something, you might consider sending it to a honemeister for an evaluation.

Someone that is competent in statistics could let us know how many people would have to vote to give us a 95% confidence rating.

Any one out there????:shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Someone that is competent in statistics could let us know how many people would have to vote to give us a 95% confidence rating.

Any one out there????:shrug:

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I'm not expert on statistics, but I do remember the basics....
The answer is 400 = (1/0.05)^2

I suspect Gugi is on his way to save the day!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JMS

I suspect Gugi is on his way to save the day!

---

Are you reading my mind? I must be John Malkovich....
And I typed twice as fast than you! Unbelievable..... Almost made up for my lost posts too... I'm on my way to buy my lottery ticket....
I'm ritch b___ !:y

There is a thread right now in the "Shaving" forum called "Shave at night?" asking for people's opinions on that subject.

Using the methodology introduced by Forzato's poll, we can conclude that 100% of straight shavers shave at night.:thinking:

Unless maybe – just maybe :hmmm: – some of the guys who shave in the morning are sorta skimming past a thread called "Shave at night?" without really bothering to read or comment.

I don't believe 25% of Nortons are defective in their manufacture. But I do believe 100% of newbies are defective in their knowledge and experience.

And I'm saying this as a person whose newbiedom lasted, like, a year and then some.

OK, ok... easy fellas.

Nobody is stating that this will be a statistically accurate endeavor... just a way to get a feel for how many of our members have had a significant problem with embedded grit in the venerable Norton waterstone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Yes, grit seems to more easily embed itself in a Norton than in say a coticule. But once diagnosed the problem is very easily solved.

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Unless you have a new insight to share, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

But thanks for the feedback.

Forzato, as I've said several times, I gather you do have a truly defective stone, and I hope Norton replaces it.

What I'm criticizing here is the way you're building to these larger conclusions about the prevalence of this defect. Most of those responding to your poll are describing problems they had as newbies and then successfully conquered with everyone's help. It was a question of learning to know their tool well, kinks and all, and then use it properly. They're not talking about a defect like the one your Norton apparently has, and yet you're tallying them up as if they were, and coming away with this crazy "1-in-4"-Nortons-is-a-botch statistic, and then writing a review in the review forum telling newbies the Norton "isn't recommended" because of the prevalence of manufacturer's defects.

The common problem described here, which I experienced myself as a newb, is easily solved. Yours sounds like it will not be. I hope you get a new Norton. And I look forward to your further experiments with back-honing on 1500 grit followed by Kitayama finish. No sarcasm here at all – :) – it sounds intriguing.

Yes - I could understand how the 'Kitayama-post-1500-grit-backhone' technique seems counterintuitive, and that it seems like it wouldn't likely work.

It was created by need more than anything else.

It works.

I think the Norton is one of the easiest hones for a Noob to learn on. I would highly recommend it. I have had no problems

Forzato:

What did the imbedded grit look like under magnification? I'm referring to the isolated grit particles found incorporated into the actual composition of your Norton stone. From what I've read in this post, you're absolutely certain these damaging and random objects are inherent IN the stone itself, rather than somehow, and from some undetermined source or sources.

Please describe those particles for me/us. I ask this because one of the first things I noticed about my Norton after I purchased a nice stereo microscope is how SOFT the surface is. You can so clearly see under magnification that altering the surface of the Norton 4000/8000 surfaces with a sharp metal object (tip of paperclip, tweezers, etc) is very easy to do. Look for the depressions under magnification in the 4000 side inherent in the manufacturing process and lightly poke at the "wall" of one of those dimples: A metal point scrapes the wall like a stick in wet sand. These surfaces are soft (try lapping a belgian blue for comparison sometime).

It's most certainly possible if lapping with a coarser grit sandpaper (and at the worst, lapping with non-wet dry sandpaper.....a huge and absolute no-no) that the sandpaper grit will release from it's backing and deposit into the surface of the Norton; especially in the surface of the more porous 4000 side. IMO, vigorous scrubbing of the surface after lapping in this fashion could result in accomplishing the opposite of your objective; rather than clean the stone, you could then be ramming and further setting the foreign particles into the surface of the Norton only to rear their ugly heads later. For all I know, the blood from your fingers could serve as an adhesive, further fixing those foreign particles into their places.;)

Can you take some pictures of these embedded particles and post them? If you don't have the means to do this, if you identify some of the particles while still in the surface, maybe one of us with a camera/scope set up could take the pics for you if you sent them your stone for evaluation?:shrug:

Finally, I'd like to add a few additional bits:

• I never had any such problems with my Norton (those edges must certainly be beveled though, people, or similar problems can happen, none of which in that case are defects related to the stone's composition) and I did post as such in your poll.
• Although you make claim that you have the best intentions in mind in trying to uncover what you believe to be a broad scoped issue, in notifying Norton to improve their product quality and ultimately make our lives better in the end, I counter that your delivery and your assertion that the outcome of your poll is measurably significant smacks of a hidden agenda. I can only speculate from the many posts you've generated in a short period of time, but it's easy to see that frustration is emanating from your pores which in turn leads me to believe you're new at this. The road to BBS shaves and consistent honing of superb edges is most often paved with practice and frustration. Get used to it now. Everyone's abilities, experience level, time available, patience or lack thereof, materials and razors are different. It's quite likely you'll trash a whole slew of blades before you find YOUR best combination of razors, hones, strops and techniques
• When you refer to the Norton 4000/8000 stone as the "benchmark" stone, I'd like you to define that term in the context you're using it in here.

Lets let this rest until Forzato gets his new hone. I am pretty sure that the next one will be just fine. There are bad hones out there of most any kind, barber hones with lumps, coticules with cracks or signifciant veins of rough red particles, chinese 12K with coarse veins, arkansas stones with inclusions etc.. It is our job to help a guy determine what the situation is and that we have done in this case. Forzato is to be commended for the effort he has put forth trying to make this hone work. He has done all the right steps.

Now lets have some patience,

Actually a 95% CI for a population proportion can be calculated for any size sample > 0, although you'd want more than that, obviously. If you want a 95% CI to have a maximum width, say, then asking what sample size is necessary to achieve that width makes sense.

As it stands currently in the poll (7/30), an "exact" 95% CI for the population proportion of "problem Nortons", assuming this poll is a representative and independent sample from the population in question (a big assumption), is

(0.09933786, 0.42283652)

ie somewhere between 9.9% and 42%.

James.

Here are a couple pennies of mine: below is my email to Norton

My Norton 4000/8000 grit waterstone has small pits and possibly foreign matter embedded in the 8000 side. I have lapped it several times, but I still find pits using a magnifying glass. When sharpening my blades, I can feel the small bumps in the surface. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Mike Caraker

Norton's reply;

John,
It sounds like Michael has a faulty stone. Could you send him a new one to the address below?
*
UPC # 61463624336
*
Thanks..
Kris
*
Kris Spofford
Product Specialist
Norton Stones

I had been using the stone for about a month, had lapped it several times, with the Norton lapper, sandpaper, and a DMT (experimenting, I prefer the DMT). I tried most of the techniques in this thread for clearing the stone of grit, but nothing worked. I noticed small black specks on the surface, but couldn't feel them with wet fingers, but as sure as I'm here, every 3rd or fourth pass, I'd feel the bump, check the blade, and find a nick.
With a 20x magnifier, I was able to see the pits, and I'm sure they are the result of bubbles in the medium, a common problem in ceramics and plaster castings. The stone probably passed inspection at the Norton plant because the bubbles were all below the surface, they're uncovered by the action of the lapping. It's possible the bubbles are localized, and can be lapped out, but I haven't tried, maybe tomorrow...
I have another theory. As you pass the blade over the wet surface, the water accelerating under the blade causes rapid pressure changes; any foreign matter (trapped during lapping) in a surface imperfection (bubble) could be stirred up and ejected onto the surface, where it waits to be caught on the edge during the next pass.
The people at Norton were quick to respond, and I'd guess that this is not an uncommon problem, but probably not as common as the survey suggests.
Well, that's probably more than two cents. It's been a couple of weeks, and I still don't have my replacement.

Mike:thinking:

yes i have small tiny rocks in norton that catch as blades slide over surface - norton said defecttive stone but this is second replacement stone that is no good:shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rayzor

yes i have small tiny rocks in norton that catch as blades slide over surface - norton said defecttive stone but this is second replacement stone that is no good:shrug:

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If you want to then send the hone to me and I will work on it to see if I can fix it, no charge.

But first, take a knife or old razor and run it over the surface of the hone 20-30 times and see if that removes the imperfections. That should be standard practice after every lapping of a hone.

Let me know,:)

OK guys, thought it was about time i spoke up, this is my experience with my new Norton over the past few days. Received on Thurs 21, then proceeded to lap with Norton w/d 280 then 600, which after that i thought I'd run my razor over it but then i encountered the small gritty feeling on BOTH sides of my 4000/8000. I immediately new this shouldn't be how it should feel so i did a bit more reading on SRP and came to the conclusion i should be finishing off the hone with finer w/d so i got some 1200, then i repeated first steps with 280,600 then went on to the 1200 and now when i use the hone it feels great( i also blasted it with water under the power shower). Altogether I'd say i did these steps about 8 times with each grade of w/d using the pencil grid, and now she feels like a dream. I hope this helps, good luck mark

Get a DMT-C 325 grit to lap and refresh both sides of the Norton and your "problems" will be solved.

David