1200-blue-yellow questions... questions...

I'm all into the Beglian Blue - Coticule paradigm, been trying to figure it out for some months now. I have been carefully copying what is being written about honing on those stones here. I admit there were a few occasions where I baldly went where no man has gone before on those hones, but most of the time I tried to be the best student of the class. Oh yes, I've had my share of successes. Edges that were, well eh... shaveable. But every time I thought I had nailed something down, the exact same approach resulted to a less "shaveable" blade, edges that could bring a three day beard down to one day stuble, but certainly not anything more. I had one remarkable shave, best yet, but that edge crumbled away by the end of that one shave.
I remember teaching my little ones how to drive a bike. I remember how cheerful they were when they drove their first 50 feet without support. I remember how desperate they cried when I pulled them out of the ditch after those first 50 feet...

Anyway: I have a few questions. The latest additions to my hones is a DMT 1200 (the continuous one). I first tried it on an old junk TI-razor. It once was a 5/8" , or so, but when I got it for 2€ on Ebay it already was down to 3,5/8", with a heavy frown. By the time I had regrind it (on a Tormek wet grinder) it became slightly less then 3/8". I actually mananged to shave with it, not very close, but not too bad either. When the DMT1200 arrived , I decided to, for the sake of breaking-in the DMT, try to put a bit of a keener edge on it. The DMT ate big chips out of it, which required a few hours of work on the blue to get rid of again. When I finally got there, I switched to the Yellow (only water, no slurry) and honed about 50 laps. Then I did Tim Zowada's double bevel trick, because everything told me my edge was nowhere near shaveready (bad results on the TPT and absolutely no results on the HHT, not even if I tried cheating it a bit) I taped the spine and did about 30 laps on a dry coticule. The test shave was bad. I had worsened the edge.
I made no big deal out of it, because I actually only wanted to break-in the DMT. To further smooth out the DMT, I lapped an already straight Belgian Blue on it.
Yesterday I started out on my silversteel DOVO. It still had the somewhat rounded factory-edge on it. A little work on a slightly slack pasted strop was what it usually needed to give me a few mediocre shaves, but I figured it was time to put a decent bevel on it and hone it properly. So I marked the edge with a waterproof permanent marker, let it cure for a while and honed with the least possible pressure on the DMT, till a good bevel was set. I could clearly see the light reflecting in one single pane under the stereo microscope. For the first time ever I was able to distinctively feel something I would describe as stickyness and drag during the TPT. I was so happy I could actually "feel" something, that I eventually sliced a little piece of skin off my thumb tip (:onothing too bad).
Then I moved to the Belgian Blue. To be careful, I decided to use only water, no slurry. It took me over an hour to get rid of (most of) the DMT1200 marks. Then I switched to the Coticule, again only water, no slurry. By that time, the sensation I felt at the countless times I performed the TPT had slowly vanished to the point I could no longer feel any "stickyness" or drag. I decided it had to be caused by the diminishing of the 1200 scratch pattern. After 20 minutes on the coticule I wiped it clean and did 30 laps on the dry coticule. I stropped about 50 laps and had my almost worst shave ever. The blade simply wasn't sharp enough.
Today I went back to the blue. With slurry this time. Some pressure and circular movement, until I saw a random pattern under the stereo microscope. Then I switched to X-strokes, still with slurry. After 15 minutes I started doing X's on water only. As little pressure as possible. After about 60 laps the bevel started to show darker areas under the scope. I stayed on the blue till the bevel looked the same all over. Maybe the TPT started to reveal some drag again. Maybe that was my imagination, fed by wishful thinking. I suck at the TPT. I switched to the Coticule again. With slurry. X's, least possible pressure. About 50 laps. Only water. Same X's, also about 50 laps. Skipped the dry coticule. Stropped, showered, lathered and shaved. The blade is sharper than yesterday, but definitely still less keen than before it saw the DMT.

Bottom line:
Is my DMT still not smooth enough?
Am I doing too much work on the blue?
Is it possible that a lot of strokes on a "smoothing" hone, such as the coticule and to some less extent also the Belgian blue, actually dulls the bevel?
How many laps would it typically take to progress from a well established bevel on a DMT1200 to a Belgian Blue and finally to the coticule?
Do I need anything else after the coticule? Perhaps a pasted strop? How many laps would that typically take?
Any other suggestions would be very welcome.

Climbing out of the ditch,
Bart.

I can't emphasize enough the fact that if your razor is not VERY sharp off the DMT 1200 grit then the belgian blue and yellow are not going to do anything positive for your edge without a rediculous amount of work. If you are not making significant and quick progress in terms of sharpness on the belgian stones then you have not done enough work on the DMT. After the razor is truly sharp on the DMT-1200 (as sharp as an EXTREMELY sharp knife) from heal to toe then 50-100 passes on the blue and 50-100 passes on the yellow then 50 passes on a plain leather strop should be absolutely all that you need to get a great shaving edge. Otherwise somethingelse is wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I can't emphasize enough the fact that if your razor is not VERY sharp off the DMT 1200 grit then the belgian blue and yellow are not going to do anything positive for your edge without a rediculous amount of work.

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Thank you, David.
I really hope that's the problem, 'cause that would be easily curable.
Would "overhoning" be of any concern in those early honing stages? Or would any overhoning issues be automatically smoothed away by the subsequent strokes on the blue and the yellow?
I didn't want the do too many strokes on the DMT, in fear that I might go to far. Is the only result of doing too much on the DMT 1200 a waiste of precious steel?

A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer...:rolleyes:

Thanks again,

Bart.

Bart,

I'm not sure what the answer to your problem is, but let's see what we can come up with. :)

Once you have really established an edge at the 1K level, you should be able to quickly and easily take it to shave-ready. I typically do 50 to 100 strokes on the Belgian blue--always with a slurry, otherwise that hone is almost useless. :)

Then 50 to 100 strokes on the coticule with plain water, and most razors are in pretty good shape. I suspect that I could get away with fewer strokes; one of these days I'm going to see what the minimum is. I do more than is strictly necessary because my skin freaks out at the slightest roughness in the edge.

The Belgian hones are pretty forgiving of imperfect pressure and strokes, sooooo.....

I'm thinking that you might not be done with your DMT work yet. Try this: Put away that nifty stereo microscope for a while, and just find yourself a strong light source. Spend a few minutes studying the edge. Turn the edge every which way. Can you make out any glints of light on the edge? Look for the reflection from the main bevel. That'll be easy to spot, since it's pretty big. Then look for a hint of light right at the edge that reflects at a different angle.

You probably have a very small area right at the edge that isn't fully sharpened at the 1200-grit level. From your description of a rounded bevel, that's even more likely.

Sometimes the microscopes can obscure these types of flaws. It can be hard to figure out exactly what you're looking for when the magnification is that strong.

The ability to see the edge like this is a great aid in honing. I can generally pick up a razor and see the dull spots, and that helps me figure out what the razor needs.

Let us know how it goes. :)

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

Thank you, David.
I really hope that's the problem, 'cause that would be easily curable.
Would "overhoning" be of any concern in those early honing stages? Or would any overhoning issues be automatically smoothed away by the subsequent strokes on the blue and the yellow?
I didn't want the do too many strokes on the DMT, in fear that I might go to far. Is the only result of doing too much on the DMT 1200 a waiste of precious steel?

A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer...:rolleyes:

Thanks again,

Bart.

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David and I share similar approaches and equipment, hence the similar replies. :)

If you stick with a normal X stroke and use a reasonable amount of pressure, you won't "overhone" with the DMT. By that I mean you won't ruin the edge. It will improve to a certain point, then it will level off. You can "hone too much," which means that you just keep honing past the point where you've maxed out what the hone can do. Then you're just wasting metal. If this isn't a really nice razor, I'd say it's worth wasting some metal for the learning experience.

Overhoning, or creating a wire edge that seems sharp only to crumble when you shave with it, isn't a huge problem with the DMT/Belgian setup. It's unlikely that your problem is caused by overhoning; more likely the edge just isn't ready for the fine polish you're trying to put on it.

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

Thank you, David.
I really hope that's the problem, 'cause that would be easily curable.
Would "overhoning" be of any concern in those early honing stages? Or would any overhoning issues be automatically smoothed away by the subsequent strokes on the blue and the yellow?
I didn't want the do too many strokes on the DMT, in fear that I might go to far. Is the only result of doing too much on the DMT 1200 a waiste of precious steel?

A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer...:rolleyes:

Thanks again,

Bart.

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Good question. In my experience if you use alternating strokes with light pressure you will not be able to overhone the edge on the DMT 1200 (If you use a lot of pressure or torque you can cause a wire edge though). As opposed to many other people, I usually do a little more than I think is necessary just so I make sure to establish a great edge at this point, the hone does not cut as fast as you think. The only drawback to using too many strokes is removing a little too much metal. On some eBay razors it can take at least several hundred passes on the DMT-E before it gets sharp enough so I never count passes. My experiments showed me that you also cannot overhone an edge on the belgian stones as long as you use very light pressure (I once did 1000 passes on the yellow and the razor continued to shave great), but it willjust be a waste of time and metal to do more than necessary. Here is how I assess sharpness at the early and very important bevel creation stages: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31640

LOL, Josh and I are typing the same responses at the same time. When I finish my message I see another from Josh just like it :roflmao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Put away that nifty stereo microscope for a while, and just find yourself a strong light source. Spend a few minutes studying the edge. Turn the edge every which way. Can you make out any glints of light on the edge? Look for the reflection from the main bevel. That'll be easy to spot, since it's pretty big. Then look for a hint of light right at the edge that reflects at a different angle.
Josh

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Thanks, Josh,
There's a lot of useful information in your post. I actually turn the blade in various directions to observe how the light reflects of the edge, but you're probably right: "between the trees, it can be difficult to spot the forest". (a standard expression in my native language) So I'll give your suggestion a try.

Another mental note I'm making: Belgian Blue: with slurry. Coticule: without slurry.

On friday, I'm having a shaving night with three other Belgian guys. We send the wifes to the pub, and get those hones and razors out:) We hope to be slick and smooth by the time those women get back.;)
I 'll take another shot at that DOVO then, and shall keep you posted.

Bart.

Yeah, David, it's getting a little creepy. We should knock it off. :)

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

Another mental note I'm making: Belgian Blue: with slurry. Coticule: without slurry.

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Many people use the yellow with a light slurry as well (including Howard at theperfectedge.com who sells the stones) so that is not a strict rule that you have to follow. Many people including myself think that the yellow polishes a little finer without the slurry but will remove metal faster with a slurry. Tim Zowada's pictures seem to support this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

LOL, Josh and I are typing the same responses at the same time. When I finish my message I see another from Josh just like it :roflmao

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I think you add up to each other very well. I felt desperate when I typed the first message of this thread. With two formidable tutors like you guys I feel humble and hopeful. Both are much better feelings than my initiial despair.

They way you both just keep helping out the ones that set first steps on their straight razor journey, is just admirable.
I, for one, won't forget this. It's not sure if I 'll ever be able to return the favor. (but I will if I ever get the chance. Maybe, in time, I 'll be able to pass it on to someone else myself. Maybe that's the whole idea of this SRP-place)

A million thanks for the advice. Knowing that you guys are out there, willing to help, IS a big help. I'm sure that counts for many people on SRP - in all possible directions.

It's time I went to bed... I'm getting all lyrical here...:rolleyes:

Bart.

Thanks for the kind words Bart. Helping each other out is what this community is all about. I certainly did not get where I am today without the help of the masters. If straight razor shaving was easy then everyone would still be using them.

Last night I got together with 2 other guys that have recently picked up the straight razor. The plan was to send the wifes off to the pub and have a cozy little "men only" shaving night. Eventually the wifes promised to be quiet and after they signed a non-interfering-treaty, they were allowed to stay home.
We took a shot at honing 3 razors: my Dovo from the previous posts, an old heirloom razor that belonged 40 years ago to my friends great grandfather, and they third guys new Dovo, that was not exactly "shave-ready".
The heirloom piece was a no brainer: it had to start off at the DMT-E, or even coarser, but such stone was not available.
The two Dovo's were inspected carefully, searching with the naked eye for odd reflections coming from the edge under a good light source and searching for imperfections under the stereo microscope. We also performed a magic marker test on the Belgian Blue with those two Dovo's. It became clear that they also had to start off at the DMT-E.
We all did our own honing. I have been practicing hours and hours on a good stroke for several weeks now (as you know, with variable succes:thinking:), Chris had done some careful strokes on a coticule before, and Marco had never even been near a hone before. We stayed on the DMT-E till all three razors passed the magic marker test and felt really sticky on the TPT along the entire edge. We shaved several square inches of arms hair too. The wifes had a rough time witnessing us, but they honored the treaty, so we were cool:cool:.
After the DMT-E we did approximately 75 light strokes on a Belgian Blue with slurry and about that same amount on a coticule with only water. I finished mine with 30 very light strokes on a dry coticule. After performing some last TPT and HHT (all razors passed with the amount of effort to pass the test depending on the type of hair -my wife's hair actually was easiest-)

'Round midnight it was finally time to move to the bathroom for a group shaving session. I am very pleased to inform you guys that all three razors performed just great. No one experienced any pulling and I mine sure was sharper than any razor I ever used before. It was very interesting to watch each other shaving. We all have very different shaving style and technique.

I have learned a lot in the past week. I'm gonna post that in a new thread, titled "Pitfalls in honing - experiences from a newbie". One of the more important lessons is that honing is like a chain. It are all just links, that aren't that difficult to do each on his own, but if one of them has a flaw, the whole chain suffers from it.

I thank everyone who's been out there and pointing out the right direction, especially David and Josh, who stood by me during my darkest hours (:D, but no joke actually). I owe you one, guys.

Of course I still have to repeat my success with a few other razors that are anxiously waiting in a drawer, but for the first time I feel like really knowing what I am doing, so I have confidence in the outcome.

Happiness is a sharp razor (free after The Beatles and the American Rifle Association;)),
Bart.

Bart, I am really happy that you figured it out! As you learned you cannot count passes on the early bevel creation stages, you simply have to hone the razor until it gets sharp before moving on. Many of the razors that we hone today would have gone back to the grinder in the past, but we are doing it all by hand. Different razors definately will require a different amount of work. Once the razor is very sharp off the low grits then it is fairly easy to polish it to a great shaving edge, and the details don't matter an awful lot as long as you remove the scratch pattern of the previous stone. FWIW I never use the coticule dry (just with water) but as you found out it probably wont make a whole lot of difference, the edge will still be good. You might want to experiment a little with finishing with the coticule dry, with slurry, and with just water a little in the future to see what you like best. Josh and I like to finish with a wet coticule.

I applaud your success. :bow

You've received some great advice. If things don't work out from here its probably because your thinking too much. Get your buds back together and only hone in groups!

For me, its just "make bevel, then buff". Any more complicated than that and I get lost.

I do like your chain analogy though. I agree with that one.

Congrats!

Bart,

That's fantastic. I really like your chain analogy, too. I think of it as a series of stages, each depending on the last. But the first step is the most important.

Thanks for sharing! :)

Josh