A Bevel Experiment!!!!!

I decided that I had a perfect opportunity to test a theory that had been put out there from Josh and Heavydutysg135 about the most important part of honing was setting the bevel.
I totally believe this theory BTW....
I had 4 razors to hone up so instead of doing the normal one razor at a time, all the way from scratch, to shave ready.... I decided to try a assembly line process...
I started with all 4 razors on a 1k Norton and began to set the initial bevel, how many strokes on each razor is irrelevant, I just wanted to get all 4 to a sticky sharp bevel then proceed with the experiment from there....
One razor needs way more work, because of a bad toe grinding that was there when I received it, so I set that one aside and continued on...
When all 3 of the razors were at a nice sharp bevel I stopped and gave it up for the night...
The next morning I started with a freshly lapped 4k Norton each razor got 10 laps, then the stone was flipped, and they got 10 more laps...
Next came the 8k with the same type of process only I went to 15 laps
after that each got 20 very light laps on the 16k Shapton
each got the exact same stropping on the exact same strops..
Keep in mind that I am very compulsive, and have the ability to do repetitive muscle motions very well, this is not a recommended way of sharpening razors!!!!!
I am not sure that this proves with out a doubt that bevel setting is where a shave ready blade starts, but it sure worked on these 3 razors... In my mind I believe that the bevel is where it is at!!!!

This was just an experiment!!!! Do Not use this as a Honing guide!!!!!

Good advice Glen. I got a huge lesson
in setting a bevel the other night.
What a disaster. I know now that it
isn't necessarily the size of the width
of the bevel that matters. I honed
the hell out of this razor, which thank
God was a junker, until I could see
a significant bevel. Then I looked at my
other razor and noticed that the bevel
on it is barely noticeable to the naked eye.
Talk about spine wear!! Oh well, lesson
learned.

John

I am starting to see.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

This was just an experiment!!!! Do Not use this as a Honing guide!!!!!

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Why not? As far as I'm aware of, you described pretty much the basics of honing a razor.
Riding a bike is easy. Just hold the front wheel steady and turn the pedals. And yet, it takes a bit of effort to learn, doesn't it?:)

(whispering...) I don't mean any disrespect, but... Lynn's piramids actually got me very confused. I'm sure they work for him and many others. Being Belgian, I wanted to use the Belgian hones, and I thought I had to adopt the pyramids to my honing system, which turned out to be a wrong assumption, for me anyway.
My mistake of course.

Last Friday, I honed up three razors together with two other newbies. We followed the same approach as what you described and the result was three very smoothly shaving razors. (I 've posted extensively about it in another thread, titled:" 1200-blue-yellow questions... questions...) I shaved with the one I honed again yesterday night, and it shaved even smoother. The extra stropping from that second shave probably even smoothened it out some more.

So yeah, David's premise from the "honing experiment" is right.
The only premise I would like to add is that there are many pitfalls to mess up such a straightforward honing job, and guys like me tend to visit those pitfalls one by one before they get it. :w

Good luck on bringing back that 4th razor...

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...
This was just an experiment!!!! Do Not use this as a Honing guide!!!!!

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Looks like a Honing Guide to me. I use different hones with the same basic procedure. Works great (when I don't goof it up :D).

*WHOA* ! ! !.......Sacrebleu !.......You guys don't know how much you helped me tonight !

John......I was in the "same boat" as you with regard to flattining out that spine ! Thanks for the post ! :bow

Marko.

i dont think, i know yall are right i have a 7/8 w&b wedge i set the bevel a month ago i have been honing on it for a month of and on have tried every thing i have learned and on shave. yesterday i said what the heck i retaped the spine broke out the corse stone and dident quit till it shaved armhair . did the blue and yellow then the paddel with cro.and had my first shave with the wedge it was realy nice to acomplish this.it is the only ravor that has eat my lunch to get a shave out of so you are right about the bevel it has to be right befour you go any farther.

I am not surprised at your very positive results at all. When I have several razors to hone for customers or myself I also use an “assembly line” type of approach that works very well. I get the razor sharp as you have done using my sharpness tests on the Norton 4K or the DMT 1200 if the razor needs more work. After this I move to a progression on the Belgian Blue, Belgian Yellow, and finish on the Escher. If the razor reacts as it should to each stone I very rarely have to touch up between test shaves because the results are almost always great. I think that honing a razor is very simple if one learns the fundamentals of proper technique and assessing relative edge sharpness and what the edge needs at the different stages in the process. I am planning to make an in-depth honing video at my straight razor get together towards the end of March that will cover what I consider to be the fundamentals and then post the video.

I agree totally with this post. Setting the bevel is of utmost importance in the start of a great edge. As for pyramids, Those are not realyy used by me for setting a bevel as it is for refining the bevel getting it prepped for the finer hones. Basically, I start with the pyramids when the marker test is gone / near gone from the edge.
I am a newbie, I have a honing problem, my twelve step program was on an eleven step pier. I fell in the water. Take my advice with a shot of bourbon.

Kilowattkid

Yep, I'm a believer. I was frustrated many times when I just started on a 4K and didn't pay any attention to the bevel. It is such a time saver when I have multitudes of razors to hone to do the assembly line. All start with setting the bevel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kerryman71

Good advice Glen. I got a huge lesson
in setting a bevel the other night.
What a disaster. I know now that it
isn't necessarily the size of the width
of the bevel that matters. I honed
the hell out of this razor, which thank
God was a junker, until I could see
a significant bevel. Then I looked at my
other razor and noticed that the bevel
on it is barely noticeable to the naked eye.
Talk about spine wear!! Oh well, lesson
learned.

John

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The width of the bevel is determinded by the thickness of the blade and spine. It should not be determinded by the amount of pressure you use! Some of my sharpest razors have an invisible bevel! They are very hollow ground!

Agreed!:) Establishing a very good bevel is the foundation.
Without it you can do pyramids or any other approach til the cows come home without success. There is no magic wonder hone or system. But... you have got to know what your looking for in the various tests. Thats the difficult part to learn and to teach.

Great posts - thanks Glen.
I have been figuring that out as a pitfall to my own honing and have been trying to do a much better job at setting that bevel initially (instead of spending hours on the coticule!)

Ronnie - Be aware that some say when you tape the spine, you're creating a steeper angle and the bevel can actually be a double bevel and need to be worn down when you remove the tape and continue in the progression. I don't use tape, so I am only repeating what some say (who recommend against tape).

I've asked a question myself about taping and was basically told that once you tape a spine, you always tape the spine. The tape lifts the spine, albeit a small amount, and sets the bevel at a certain angle. When you remove the tape, the spine drops and the edge picks up off of the hone. Bam! Double bevel.

Maybe taping the spine should be in a whole other thread but since we started to go there, lets just continue on this one.....
My general rules for taping the spine.....

1 Any brand new razor, especially if it belongs to someone else
2 Any NOS razor see rule 1
3. Any Full wedge, I just don't have the time, nor patience, and I only own one of them....
4. Any razor that has a warp problem that I intend to fully restore.... (This does not pertain to using a thin stone, or a rocking, swooping, or modified X pattern thats a horse of a different color)

Other than these reasons, I am not all that keen on taping the spine...
What say you??????

The main point with the tape is that you have to decide if you want to hone the razor completely with or completely without tape. If you decide to go with the tape then you must use it throughout the entire process and every time you touch up the razor on a stone in the future. Otherwise you will not be sharpening the edge because of the steeper bevel angle established with the tape.

Further exploration of the tape....

Lets say for hypothetical conjecture I hone brand new razor "A" for John Doe he uses the razor for 5 months never using a hone, he only uses a daily strop, and twice he uses a pasted paddle strop to refresh the blade, all without taping of course...
Now during the 5th month he no longer can get a shaving edge from the razor, so he sends it to heavydutysg135 "David" to be honed... David takes the razor and checks the bevel, now how would he know that the bevel was established with tape I mean the difference in angle is so slight that it would not be apparent, even looking through a microscope, only one bevel would be seen... So we are back at square one in this thread of establishing a bevel on a 4k or less stone before proceeding on to the polishing stage.... So if when refreshing a blade unless it is the honemiester's personal blade, and he knows how the edge was set up, step one on every honing process should always be "Establish the Bevel" .....
Or is my thinking flawed here?????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Further exploration of the tape....

Lets say for hypothetical conjecture I hone brand new razor "A" for John Doe he uses the razor for 5 months never using a hone, he only uses a daily strop, and twice he uses a pasted paddle strop to refresh the blade, all without taping of course...
Now during the 5th month he no longer can get a shaving edge from the razor, so he sends it to heavydutysg135 "David" to be honed... David takes the razor and checks the bevel, now how would he know that the bevel was established with tape I mean the difference in angle is so slight that it would not be apparent, even looking through a microscope, only one bevel would be seen... So we are back at square one in this thread of establishing a bevel on a 4k or less stone before proceeding on to the polishing stage.... So if when refreshing a blade unless it is the honemiester's personal blade, and he knows how the edge was set up, step one on every honing process should always be "Establish the Bevel" .....
Or is my thinking flawed here?????

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Great question! What I would do is CAREFULLY mark the razor edge with a premanent marker and then with a very fine stone (yellow coticule or escher) I will make a few light passes on the razor without tape. If the marker is completely removed all the way to the edge then I know there is only 1 single bevel established without spine lifting (although it may not be sharp enough) and can easily hone the razor without tape without a lot of work. If the marker is almost completely removed but a thin line remains to the naked eye at the shaving edge then I would know conclusively (no guessing) that there is a small double bevel. I would not know how steep the double bevel was but I would know that it exists. Then I could put one piece of tape on the spine and see if the edge matches up perfectly. If the edge matches up perfectly with the spine then I could either hone the razor with tape throughout the process or completely re-establish the bevel on the course stones before moving on to the polishing stages. To re-establish the bevel can easily take several hundred passes on a Norton 4K so make sure to use the permanent marker or microscope test to see when you are done. Do NOT just assume that it will only take few passes because it will not.

In my collection I have several razors honed without tape and several honed with tape. I keep a list of how each razor is honed so that I can easily match the bevel in the future for touch-ups on a finishing stone without guessing or testing. I am not sure if it makes a big difference if you are using a pasted strop or pasted paddle strop because of the give in the leather, but I always use stones and it definately does make a difference.

David

I completely agree with that David. All of the knives I use are listed in my notebook with the stones used on them and the angles. I don't do anything similar for razors at the moment but I should definitely start keeping some notes to make future honing easier. I would imagine that when it is time to hone again I will have completely forgotten what I did and approximately how long it took for each razor. This should save me a ton of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shotwell1234

I completely agree with that David. All of the knives I use are listed in my notebook with the stones used on them and the angles. I don't do anything similar for razors at the moment but I should definitely start keeping some notes to make future honing easier. I would imagine that when it is time to hone again I will have completely forgotten what I did and approximately how long it took for each razor. This should save me a ton of time.

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It isn't that hard to remember if you only have a few razors, but once you really start building up the tribe it gets hard to remember what you did to each individual razor :D

Haha, I already have 5 so I think i better start taking the notes now. RAD is a terrible, terrible disease.

So, I'm completely convinced that establishing the bevel is very important, but I don't quite understand when a bevel is considered established. I say this because what I'm getting is that you establish the bevel and then move to pyramids to sharpen it up. Do you start doing pyramids as soon as the edge passes the marker test? Or should it be at least popping arm hairs?

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Originally Posted by KingOfMalkier

...Do you start doing pyramids as soon as the edge passes the marker test? Or should it be at least popping arm hairs?

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The marker test shows you where the hone is working the edge. It is also a valuable tool to help you develop your honing stroke with razors having a smile.

Bear in mind that passing the TNT might be from the existing edge that is different from the bevels that you are trying to set now.

I'd say that when the edge passes the marker and TNT then you have a good working bevel. Use both tests with any new-to-you razor that you are setting a bevel on. A freshly set bevel on a 1200 mesh or 4k should shave arm hairs with ease at skin level. How well it mows hair above skin level will depend on your own hair's characteristics. For instance, my fine arm hairs are not easily mowed by a 12k edge, I have to go more by how they are "grabbed/pulled". YM will V. I use the TPT and the mowing hair test once I have the bevels set. I like the TPT the best.

After my razor passes the TNT, I move to my next finer hone. I don't use pyramids. After putting an 8k polish on an edge, it seems counter-productive to me if I go back and put 4k striations on my 8k bevels. I believe pyramids are designed to prevent new users from over-honing (and avoiding wire edges, maybe). Another reason I don't use pyramids is because I don't use a Norton...

After the bevel is set I just polish on each successively finer hone/paste until a noticeable difference is seen. For me, setting the first bevel usually takes the most time.

EDIT: Here's a good reference link. I stole most of this post from it... :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sticky

The marker test shows you where the hone is working the edge. It is also a valuable tool to help you develop your honing stroke with razors having a smile.

Bear in mind that passing the TNT might be from the existing edge that is different from the bevels that you are trying to set now.

I'd say that when the edge passes the marker and TNT then you have a good working bevel. Use both tests with any new-to-you razor that you are setting a bevel on. A freshly set bevel on a 1200 mesh or 4k should shave arm hairs with ease at skin level. How well it mows hair above skin level will depend on your own hair's characteristics. For instance, my fine arm hairs are not easily mowed by a 12k edge, I have to go more by how they are "grabbed/pulled". YM will V. I use the TPT and the mowing hair test once I have the bevels set. I like the TPT the best.

After my razor passes the TNT, I move to my next finer hone. I don't use pyramids. After putting an 8k polish on an edge, it seems counter-productive to me if I go back and put 4k striations on my 8k bevels. I believe pyramids are designed to prevent new users from over-honing (and avoiding wire edges, maybe). Another reason I don't use pyramids is because I don't use a Norton...

After the bevel is set I just polish on each successively finer hone/paste until a noticeable difference is seen. For me, setting the first bevel usually takes the most time.

EDIT: Here's a good reference link. I stole most of this post from it... :eek:

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+1 on everything Sticky said.

Basicly: - set bevel till it shaves arm hair EFFORTLESSLY
- polish bevel on finer grits (don't overdo it)
- strop on leather and shave

No pyramids for me either: I tried them, switching between a Belgian Blue and a Coticule, but on those stones there seems no advantage coming from this method.

Good luck,

Bart.

Thanks Bart and Steven. I got the edge to pass the marker test using a 1k norton. I think I'll keep doing laps on the 4k norton until it also passes the TNT. Reading heavy's post (for the thousandth time :p ) along with your comments, that makes sense to me. The marker tells me it's an even bevel, all the way to the edge. The TNT tells me it's sharp enough that proceeding to the 8k will actually be worth my time. I think I'll probably stick with pyramids at that point, because I am such a beginning honer.

I suppose I could have pieced that together, but it's so helpful to hear the experienced folks say it. Sometimes the subtlest way you guys phrase it makes it really click.