Any reason why I should not use a coticule to create a slurry on another? I have two. If that is not something I should do , is an arkansas stone a good stone for creating a slurry?
Martin
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Any reason why I should not use a coticule to create a slurry on another? I have two. If that is not something I should do , is an arkansas stone a good stone for creating a slurry?
Martin
If you're in to creating a slurry, that's exactly what you SHOULD do (use a similar stone rather than a stone of dissimilar grit). Many people buy the "cotigura" stone which is just an extremely small bout of yellow coticule to create slurry on their yellow.
Please post your experiences with the slurry. I'm interested in your thoughts on this in relation to how you feel it affects your edges.
Chris L
Will do. I have sharpened some with just water. I'm going to try a slurry and see if it makes an appreciable difference. I've seen both opinions expressed here.
For what it's worth, as I'm a newbie honer too, the slurry cuts WAY faster. I've experimented with honing on dry blue and yellow, then with slurry, with fast results with the slurry. I used to think this whole slurry business was just weird, but I'm a believer now.
Sharpening with only water will create a tiny amount of slurry anyway. The more slurry you create, the better the cutting. It's proportional.
If my razor already has a good edge and I only want to prolong its shaving lifespan before the next honing session, I might give it 20 or so laps with only water.
If I have just set a bevel on a DMT1200 > Belgian Blue then I will create plenty of slurry on my coticule to get it closer to the 6000-8000 grit that the blue is. Then progress to using it with water and then finally my own little tip of using the coticule dry just before stropping.
You could think of it as - a coticule with slurry @ 10,000 grit and with only water @ 12,000 grit. Of course these figures are just used to create a picture.
Hope this helps.
I pretty much agree with everything that poona posted, but I have two minor disagreements. My coticule is hard enough that it generates no slurry when used with plain water unless I use TONS of pressure. I think this varies from stone to stone.
Also, I find the coticule with a heavy slurry will sometimes just completely dull an edge. If there is a small problem with the edge, like a dull spot that I missed on the DMT, I'll sometimes whip up a slurry on the coticule and hone just that spot with back-and-forth strokes and a little pressure. This takes off metal very fast, sometimes I think almost as fast as the DMT 1200. :) The slurry gets black.
Usually at this point I find the edge is properly set but it seems really dull--it won't shave arm hair at all. Dropping back to the Belgian blue for a few laps has it popping hairs again without trouble. I don't understand why this happens, but I've seen it over and over.
To address your original question, the only reason I can see for not using a second coticule to raise a slurry is that you're wearing out an expensive hone. A cotigura is pretty cheap--$15 or so--and lets you save your coticule for actual honing. :) But then again, it'll still probably outlast you by a couple hundred years...
Josh
I must get a pic up of my cotigura. It is almost double sided. One side is quite a light shade of brown/red and the other is the normal yellow.
Yours the same?
Mine is the same color all the way through--creamy yellow.
Josh
I agree with Josh here, be careful not to create a
slurry that is too heavy -- I've also found that it
can dull razors. A nice light slurry from a few strokes
of the cotigura is just the ticket!
- Scott
I use my cotigura on the blue aswell. Nice wee versatile stone she is.
That's exactly my experience. I have worked with 3 different coticules. One created slurry out of his own very easily. The second did not create slurry on his own, not even after an extended time of honing. The third was similar to the second, but after extended honing a very thin slurry would emerge.
My theory about this is that a dense slurry abrades the very tip of the bevel as you push the razor through it. (It's a bit like pushing the edge of a knife through mud, IMHO) Of course, after the heavy work, a bit of honing with a thin slurry will get the edge keen again, so if you're without a bevel-setting stone, I think a dense slurry could be worth trying. I have one question, though. I fear that heavy pressure in conjunction with a full hollow ground razor might flex the bevel a bit. I reckon it will flex back on it's own, but while being flexed, the honing angle is actually altered. I have no idea how that would affect the honing results.
just a few additional thoughts,
Bart.
A year ago or so Randy Tuttle sliced up a natural and sold the slices. It was a vintage. I was lucky to buy a section from him.
I use the blue side on my Belgian blue stone. The Coticule side was somewhat pinkish/speckled. It did not give up much slurry contents. I use it sometimes and a trianguluar cotigura other times.
Randy, If you see this did you find that to be a hard coticule? It is the darkest specimen I have.
Bart,
I like the mud analogy. The thing I don't get is why a heavy slurry on the blue doesn't have the same effect. Maybe because it cuts slower? :shrug:
Josh
I've had different results on different coticules as well.
As for creating slurry on the blue, I don't it automatically appears when honing for me. The blue seems soft enough that I don't need to do anything about it.
Actually my blue does it too. Only a few days ago, I decided to finally tackle a Friodur that has been lying around here and never really quite got up to par. I put it on the DMT and lapped till I was absolutely sure the bevel was excellent. Great results on the TNT and TPT. I stropped it a little and it mowed arm hairs above level and passed the HHT. Actually my most promising result off the DMT so far. Then I created slurry on the blue. I overdid it a little. That blue produces a slurry very rapidly. I added some more water to dilute it, but still, while I was honing I was telling myself "this is too dense a slurry", but I continued anyway. (You know how good we humans are at ignoring the obvious). I did about 50 laps. After that the results on all test were negative. I went back to the DMT. It took me about 10 light laps to get back at were I was before the blue again. I rinsed the blue and made sure I had a lighter slurry this time (that first slurry had the consistency of coffee cream - while now it was more like watery milk) I did pretty much the same 50 laps, and stayed on track this time. Finished on the coticule and had a superb test shave.
So maybe there's variation in the blue stone too. After all, they are naturals...
I have another blue, that I haven't used much yet. A big heavy F.Herder (1/4 ground - curved spine) is anxiously waiting in the drawer to get honed. I'll put it on that other blue and see how that one behaves.
PS. A sudden strike: Like others, I create the slurry on the blue with a small piece of yellow coticule, so half of the slurry consists out of yellow particles. That might make all the difference.
Bart.
im surprised you guys use a slurry on the synthetic stones as they cut alot faster, i only use nortons, my TOS which requires a slurry and coticule which also needs a slurry. The TOS is amazingly slow cutting and the slurry is definately required anyways with it being a natural, but thanks for the info guys, im no expert but i do like to try alternatives to my routine which is really whatever works for me..
regards, simon
Josh,
I see your point, but I paid five bucks for a vintage combination blue / yellow coticule ( yes, 5 bucks). Seems like, based on the replies, my ifve dollar stone will serve double duty.
Thanks for all the input on this one.
Martin
Martin,
I think you got me mixed up with one of the other posters. ;) You can't beat a combo hone for $5, no siree bob.
Josh
Anyone use a DMT to create a slurry on a natural stone?
I just purchased a natural Japanese waterstone that is recommended to be used with a slurry. This was discussed with the seller as something created by a DMT type hone. I have no small cotigura or piece of this hone.
Anyone have experience doing this? I am thinking a 1200 DMT might be about right?
I think that would work fine, though I'd probably get the 325 or the 600. By the way www.allprotools.com sells tiny 4x1 DMTs that would be perfect for what you're talking about.
The only drawback I can imagine is excessive wear on the natural hone, DMTs being aggressive.
I've never tried it, but I, like sdsquarepoint, have a slice of one of Randy Tuttle's old coticules, which appears to have been nature's DMT, a :cen piece of kryptonite. It is truly a strange specimen. I don't use it on other coticules, because it's too damn hard and really scratches them, but it's excellent on several hard natural Scottish hones I have that have no slurry stone of their own.
I've never tried it, but I, like sdsquarepoint, have a slice of one of Randy Tuttle's old coticules, which appears to have been nature's DMT, a :cen piece of kryptonite. It is truly a strange specimen. I don't use it on other coticules, because it's too damn hard and really scratches them, but it's excellent on several hard natural Scottish hones I have that have no slurry stone of their own.[/QUOTE]
IT was indeed hard. It creates little slurry from itself and it is pinkish brown unlike any other coticule piece I have seen. I supposed that might be why Randy sacrificed it . MikeB
IT was indeed hard. It creates little slurry from itself and it is pinkish brown unlike any other coticule piece I have seen. I supposed that might be why Randy sacrificed it . MikeB[/QUOTE]
Dylandog,
I think I had a quoate mishap . Pardon my plagerism.
MikeB
As a relative newcomer to honing, I have aquired a fantastic stone from Howard, a natural blue and yellow combo plus a cotigura the same. I also have a Norton combo. For general razor maintenance, does anyone have any suggestions for a pyramid for the yellow/blue ? Or do I just stay on the yellow until the blade gets quite dull.
With Belgian hones, there is no need to do pyramids. I usually only use the blue hone if I'm honing a razor from scratch. For touchups, I would stick with the coticule. :)
The main function of the blue in my arsenal is to take out the coarse scratches from my 1200-grit DMT diamond hone, which I use to repair a damaged edge. The blue does a great job of smoothing that out and setting up the edge for the coticule.
It is not fast-cutting enough to restore a severely damaged edge on its own, so if you really find that you need to drop down in grit to fix an edge, I'd consider using another hone first.
Josh
I meant to give a link to allprotools' little 4x1 DMTs – here it is. $7.86 – not bad.