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My personal observation is that on a wide hone, with an X pattern it is much easier to sharpen a blade because the bevel does not have to be perfectly flat in all areas.
Unless you are talking about just holding the blade at a slant and keeping it entirely in contact with the hone, if that's the case then I'm not sure the difference, but I would venture to guess it's marginal since people seem to get very sharp razors in either way.
I have to chime in- not that I'm a skilled honemaster, but I do have woodworking experience (in fact I sold woodworking tools for a few years).
You're definitely on to the cusp of the issue with the scything/angle of the edge
- an edge cuts, it does not scrape- and without the sything motion an edge simply tears the fibers. Many fine woodworkers will sharpen their chisels and then hone them on 8000, 12K, 14K, etc, (Chinese water stones are very popular for that) stones just like we do razors. A chisel bluntly cutting a dowel off (as shown in the book) will tear some of the wood fibers and crush others leaving a rough cut- even the sharpest chisel will leave a rougher cut this way, but the scything motion allows the edge to do what it is designed for- cut and leave a much smoother joint, if you will. The same would hold true for the hair, crushing and tearing the hair fiber as opposed to slicing cleanly through it. Remember too what a scythe is and why it works- by allowing the edge to slice through the stalks of grain with a simple motion of the human arm. As many know, and was reminded me by Stephan at the Mass get-together- one can often grip and edge and apply direct pressure without getting cut, but the moment you slide against that edge you bleed. Sword techniques of holding the blade were the discussed as I was gripping and squeezing the blade and edge of my Paki razor in my hand to show how dull it was.
Pondering this while reading this thread and starting to type it it suddenly dawns on me I don't use the angled stroke for fear of slicing my face open...and it becomes clear the source of so much of my "pulling" is self inflected. Another breakthrough is made and better shaving awaits!
Now, with regard to the ridges, grooves, teeth, or whatever you wish to call them. For a moment think along the lines of general sanding or finishing of any material- a course grit finish is large scratches and we progress through finer and finer grits th erase the course grooves and replace them with finer ones. As we do this we change the properties of the surface- from non reflective with the large grooves reflecting light in different directions and increased surface area and ridges (friction ridges) to contact on the surface to smaller grooves that both scatter less light and eventually become so small as to actually reflect increasingly the light available in the same direction and to reduce the amount of friction ridges decreasing the friction against the surface.
Now, when we have finished with the finest grit we have we have the smallest grooves... the smoothest surface.... the least amount of friction....
Why couldn't this be the mechanic at work reducing the friction of the edge and the blade against the skin and not the grooves making teeth to saw through the hair?
This would be supported by the results obtained by pasted strops with even finer and finer abrasives- newsprint, cigar ash, rotten stone...smoother and closer shaves.
There are many experts (at least, those whom I would deem experts) who claim the x pattern was simply and only established to allow for even wear on the blade with a smaller stone, and this is essentially what we all use to sharpen out pocket knives, and kitchen knives. Some of those experts are barbers, almost all of whom would have used one of those barber manuals at one time or another. Many experienced in sharpening use other patterns and get very good results in the application the have. In the non shaving world the x pattern is a minimally used thing- and I have seen and produced edges sharp enough to pop hairs on non shaving items using other methods and patterns. Have I shaved with a chisel? No, not my face, but when I have to put one to a stone it will all shave my arm before I'm done.
Don't forget too the tools the barber would most often have available to hone- the technique most predominantly used in any field is based on the tools available. If the majority of stones and hones were less then the length of a razor, (and based on what I have seen for barber hones, the all were) the technique taught to the new barbers (as in what the barber manual would say) would be directed to using those hones, and not likely to include techniques for using hones not commonly available or not available at all.
Now, I'm not saying I'm right- just giving another angle to look at it from.
Has anyone examined a commercial DE blade under an electron microscope for comparison- they are sharper by comparison to a straight or a Feather Razor blade which is also so much sharper to see what pattern they have? Physics and metallurgy will dictate the smallest edge that can be created and stand up to the task of shaving, so if we rule out a difference in the metallurgy from older technology to newer technology (which I believe we can since there are currently manufacturers still making straights) the difference must be in the sharpening process.
Neither a DE commercial blade or a feather blade should be sharper than a straight razor. They are sharpened differently, and with coarser grits than many of us here use on our straights, so they may be sharper than some straights from the factory, but not those in the hands of "pros".Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme-
And as far as metallurgy goes for making the edge as thin as possible, you are partially correct. For the most part, the quality of the steel is consistent throughout the time periods we deal with, though there are some regions that made better steels at certain points than others. There could also be some fluctuation in the degree of hardening of a given razor with respect to another, which would mean that a variable degree of sharpness is possible for different razors. But that variance wouldn't be a function of the time that the item were made, it would depend on the manufacturer, and the quality of workmanship by the craftsmen involved.
So, yes, a big difference is in the sharpening technique and to what final grit level you take the edge. But another part of it is almost a gamble, between getting an outstanding specimen and an average one, that is dictated by sundry external, indeterminable factors.
I do agree that the x pattern aids in maintaining even wear on uneven blades. But it also could be lessening the amount of pulling caused by the teeth created, as I mentioned somewhere above, thus actually providing a "smoother" edge for a given grit level... enter diminishing returns argument... enter personal preference... etc.
Great perspective on the friction reduction aspect, btw.
Au contraire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge
Those feather Pro blades are the sharpest thing to ever touch my face.
I can get a wicked sharp edge on a good blade, and it might come close to a feather blade, but the feather blade will be much sharper.
I've heard that people have gotten feather sharp blades with the 32 K shapton, but even then it is not a given.
Normal straights may be more smooth, forgiveable and comfortable in the skin, but in pure sharpness a feather beats the snot out of most honemeister honed blades.
Well I just want to put in my 2 cents.
I actually had a brand new Dovo that was sharpened by one of our hone meisters. I didn't buy it for that reason, I just wanted a new straight and liked the look of it. Being pre-honed was just icing on the cake. Having already successfully brought a Dubl Duck, Sanguine and Union Razor Cutlery Co. into shave readiness, I was curious to try one that was the epitome of shave ready. The darn thing pulled like crazy. After about 20 runs up and down the Norton in an "I" pattern, it is now one damn good shaver.
Now I'm not knocking who honed it but I have since come to a conclusion. That for some guys, that pattern gives better shaves.
When I first started, I used the X pattern for quite some time and struggled with it. Then one day I switched to the I pattern and Kaboom. HHT passed and shaves were awesome. I've used the I pattern ever since and haven't looked back. I'm beginning to think that everyone's whickers are different and what seems to shave me best is a blade honed in an I pattern.
I'm not knocking anyone's technhique or experience. I just think that what seems to work for one is not necessarily the solution for everyone.
Later,
80s
I can get most razors to pass the HHT easily- but that (as has been discussed) is not the be-all end-all test for sharpness.
Russel, I find it very hard to believe the smooth, irritation free shaves of a DE blade (agreed, they must be sharpened commercially, which would lend toward course measures) and the ultra sharpness of my Feather AC are not sharper than my honemeister honed Dovo, which does pull and irritate in comparison. The research data and results do not support the .
Recently I was privileged to spend some time with Howard from The Perfect Edge, and received an education on his thoughts and method for finish honing, which is the "I" as well. The virtue of that, extrapolating from what he told me, is you can apply light pressure to the bevel evenly across the blade which takes much more effort with the x pattern to be consistent.
I guess I stand corrected, but from an intuitive perspective that seems strange that something mass produced would be of that quality, but if that's the case then great!
How do they compare to edges that have been diamond pasted, say, up to .25? Because thats just about the finest grit level available, after .25 the variable grit size is hard to control and also becomes extremely expensive, even for mass production. What I'm getting at is that either they are somehow getting grit levels sub .1 micron (which would give a noticeable difference, impressive and expensive) or the bevel is much more acute which would give the feeling of a sharper edge. Or some other factor that is, as of yet, undetermined.
Anyone know the process they use?
Maybe gamma rays? I think .25 micron gets the blade sharp enough...Quote:
Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge