Do you tape the spine?

I lucked out and found a very experienced straight razor shaver/honer who lives 1/2 hour from me and was gracious enough to invite me over and show me first hand his honing and stropping technique. He honed a Goldedge that I had picked up on the bay. It was about as sharp as a butter knife when he started and was as shave ready as can be when he was finished 45 minutes later. My honing and stropping has improved greatly since he showed me his method which is more or less in line with Lynn's video.

He tapes the spine on razors that have little or no hone wear. This makes sense to me and I may start doing that as I accumulate more straights. Of course if you tape the spine to set the bevel you have to tape it every time you hone it. I am wondering how many of you fellows tape the spines on your razors?

Even if there is significant hone wear, if it's still a nice razor, taping the spine will delay the inevitable.
I tape the spine on anything with goldwash, or blueing, anything new or with limited hone wear, or a worked back.
In actuality, there is very little I don't tape. Even if it isn't a special razor to me, I don't know if the razor was somebody's grandfather's, or what, My philosophy is do what you want with your razors, but if you are honing someone else's tape the spine.

If everyone tapes the spine....always..... the second hand razor market is dead.

The whole point about the untaped spine is that it tells you the age of the razor.
The razor is TRUE. You can see the hone wear on the spine, it tells you the usage on the blade.

So if a razor is taped, how will you know if a razor was originally a 3/4" or a 11/16" or a 5/8". Does it matter? Yes it does because razors do not last forever. A 3/4" honed to 5/8" is not a very good razor. It does not shave well.

I'm going to say strongly something I feel deeply, having watched the second hand razor market develop over the years. Taping the spine of a razor is like clocking the milage meter on a car.

In my opininion it should be illegal if you ever intend to trade the razor.

If you wish to experiment, do what you like, but when you have finished don't forget to throw the razor in the bin or clearly label it as "honed with a taped spine".

Some say they do it to protect the gold or etching on the blade. Sorry, but once the honing cuts into the etching, the blade is beyond its sell by date.

If you don't believe me, buy a tired looking razor off e bay and see for yourself. Or buy a refurb. that looks as if the blade is under size and see if you can get a good shave out of it.

You know, you can make a butter knife razor sharp. But you will never get a good shave out of a butter knife.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

Taping the spine of a razor is like clocking the milage meter on a car.

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It isn't like that at all! I fail to grasp the analogy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

In my opininion it should be illegal if you ever intend to trade the razor.

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Nutter. That's absurd. What would be the charge? I can see the headlines already:

"Hobbyist Jailed Due To Sticky Situation"
"The Barber Who Thought He Could Get Away With Selling a Tampered Rusty Razor"
"500 LBS Of Contraband Razors Nabbed By Border Guards In Largest Sting To Date"
"Law Enforcement Officer Cuts Self While Trying to Apprehend Black Market Razor-Taper"

False advertising is already against the law, and somehow I doubt that anyone will be honing razors with tape for years just so they can resell later on as new

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

If everyone tapes the spine....always..... the second hand razor market is dead.

The whole point about the untaped spine is that it tells you the age of the razor.
The razor is TRUE. You can see the hone wear on the spine, it tells you the usage on the blade.

Good point.

So if a razor is taped, how will you know if a razor was originally a 3/4" or a 11/16" or a 5/8". Does it matter? Yes it does because razors do not last forever. A 3/4" honed to 5/8" is not a very good razor. It does not shave well.

I think this will depend on the razor. I have many razors that have been honed far beyond 1/8 of what they started out as, and they are perfectly fine.

From a metalurgical stand point, the razor is a homogenous piece of steel that has been hardened equally from spine to edge. So you could literally hone the razor into dust before the steel's properties become unsuitable.

But from a geometric stand point, taping the spine will increase the bevel angle as the razor ages and is sharpened, thus making it more and more obtuse and eventually unusable. But that'll be a long way down the road.

I'm going to say strongly something I feel deeply, having watched the second hand razor market develop over the years. Taping the spine of a razor is like clocking the milage meter on a car.

In my opininion it should be illegal if you ever intend to trade the razor.

If you wish to experiment, do what you like, but when you have finished don't forget to throw the razor in the bin or clearly label it as "honed with a taped spine".

Some say they do it to protect the gold or etching on the blade. Sorry, but once the honing cuts into the etching, the blade is beyond its sell by date.

But it is a valid method of honing damascus razors and those with spine decoration that would be devalued by honing without tape.

If you don't believe me, buy a tired looking razor off e bay and see for yourself. Or buy a refurb. that looks as if the blade is under size and see if you can get a good shave out of it.

I have, the shaves are generally fine.

You know, you can make a butter knife razor sharp. But you will never get a good shave out of a butter knife.

Not to be a smart ass, but that is because butter knives are made of junk steel or silver (antiques etc.).

I have a paring knife that I made out of 1095 steel that will actually take a finer edge than some of my razors (tried it just for fun one time). The intended purpose of the item has nothing to do with the edge it will take, it's a matter of steel composition and hardening procedure. And by "finer edge" I mean sharp as well as tough, which is what a razors edge is.

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But you make a good point on the deception factor, an extremely worn razor ought to show that wear.

I dont tape the spine of my razors, even if must be to remove nicks 1-2 mm.
I like the natural wear of my razors.
Spine wear must be proportional with edge wear for blade geometry reasons.( the diference between a 5/8 and 6/8 blade is aprox. 3mm.
and they have diferent spine width.
I dont like to shave with a razor with 6/8 spine width and a 5/8 blade.
Shaving is better with a pre 6/8 razor with 5/8 blade and a lot of spine wear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slant-Fan

I lucked out and found a very experienced straight razor shaver/honer who lives 1/2 hour from me and was gracious enough to invite me over and show me first hand his honing and stropping technique. He honed a Goldedge that I had picked up on the bay. It was about as sharp as a butter knife when he started and was as shave ready as can be when he was finished 45 minutes later. My honing and stropping has improved greatly since he showed me his method which is more or less in line with Lynn's video.

Great!

He tapes the spine on razors that have little or no hone wear. This makes sense to me and I may start doing that as I accumulate more straights. Of course if you tape the spine to set the bevel you have to tape it every time you hone it.

You can set the bevel on the razor with tape (do the rough cutting on a coarse stone), then remove the tape and do a few more strokes on the coarse stone, just enough to bring the razor back to it's intended bevel, and procede as per usual with the finishing stones. This decreases the spine wear but makes it possible for someone to hone it without tape sometime down the road.

I am wondering how many of you fellows tape the spines on your razors?

I do, when it is necessary. And that is a personal judgement.

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Great poll! It's good to know where people stand on issues like this.

The point about not being able to see the reduction in the width of the blade is that such a blade has lost its integrity. The springiness has gone. If you tape the spine its almost impossible to tell. Yes it will shave(like a butter knife) but not with the same feel of the original. Not as the manufacturer had originally intended.

What I mean by illegal should not be taken literally. If a razor has had a taped spine, it is not what I would call an "honest" razor.

My final point refers to razors that have damascus blades or decorated spines. Well to be honest, if the only way to hone such a razor is with tape, I would suggest to you that there s a fundamental design fault.

I have had (and sold on this forum) a DOVO (Micarta) that has fancy etching all over the blade. It will take years of honing before the honing might upset the esthetic properties. Infact, the blade quality will deteriorate before the esthetics.

What's the problem with the fine honing line on the spine of a damascus blade getting marginally wider over time.

I think the problem comes from people learning to hone. Overhoning and then selling off a "dishonest" razor that has been taped and then overhoned.

I'm not referring to forum members who tend to understand these things as well as I do, but there are a lot of dishonest razors out there. I think that taping will proliferate rather than reduce the problem. That's my only real concern. Otherwise I'm just being a bit mischievous to give you the argument for not taping.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

The point about not being able to see the reduction in the width of the blade is that such a blade has lost its integrity. The springiness has gone. If you tape the spine its almost impossible to tell. Yes it will shave(like a butter knife) but not with the same feel of the original. Not as the manufacturer had originally intended.

What I mean by illegal should not be taken literally. If a razor has had a taped spine, it is not what I would call an "honest" razor.

My final point refers to razors that have damascus blades or decorated spines. Well to be honest, if the only way to hone such a razor is with tape, I would suggest to you that there s a fundamental design fault.

I have had (and sold on this forum) a DOVO (Micarta) that has fancy etching all over the blade. It will take years of honing before the honing might upset the esthetic properties. Infact, the blade quality will deteriorate before the esthetics.

What's the problem with the fine honing line on the spine of a damascus blade getting marginally wider over time.

I think the problem comes from people learning to hone. Overhoning and then selling off a "dishonest" razor that has been taped and then overhoned.

I'm not referring to forum members who tend to understand these things as well as I do, but there are a lot of dishonest razors out there. I think that taping will proliferate rather than reduce the problem. That's my only real concern. Otherwise I'm just being a bit mischievous to give you the argument for not taping.:)

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I totaly agree!

I think Yannis has it right. Taping the spine distorts the geometry of the blade and thus impairs performance. My view is the razor is tool that will inevitably wear with use. Thsu enabling me to justify acquiring new ones.

Here's the thing: A razor being sold in a "dishonest" manner has absolutely nothing to do with spine taping except on a case by case basis. Plenty of people have plenty of different reasons for taping the spine when they hone and all of those reasons are fine. If someone sells a razor saying it has no spine wear (and failing to mention that it has been honed plenty with tape), then it is a problem. But that is no reason to say that taping a spine is "bad".

As for telling a razors age from spine wear? That's kind of ridiculous. Plenty of razors have been found as NOS or new in box from 50-100+ years ago. Those razors don't have spine wear to tell its literal age. If what you mean is to tell the razors use, then it is still no exact science. People have different honing technique and habits. Some people use too much pressure, some use very little. That doesn't ever mean that the razor with less hone wear will shave better or has been honed less times.

Aesthetics have a LOT to do with people collecting and using straights nowadays and whatever system an individual wants to use to protect the integrity of the design of whatever razors he owns is perfectly ok. Would I tape a damascus spine? Yes. Would I need to? No. Simple as that. Hopefully when razors exchange hands, the seller will always be honest about what he knows about the razor. If sometimes we aren't fortunate enough to have enough information from a seller or even to have an honest seller at all, that is the gamble we take.

It would take a great deal of honing to wear a blade down to such a degree that it changes the geometry, A blade that has been honed is just that, I don't see how taping the spine is dishonest. When someone sends a razor to me to be honed, I want that blade to go back to them looking just as good as when it arrived.
I would be very upset if I sent out a nice clean razor to someone to be honed, and it came back to me looking significantly different.
90% of the razors I get to hone need a fresh bevel, some need extensive work to get that bevel (E-bay specials) often times the member has put in a lot of work to restore that blade, and I'm not going to send it back with honing marks on the spine. Most of the time I will see a blade once or twice in it's lifetime, and the owner will learn to maintain it from there, so the little work I do to it should not make it dishonest, nor should my thin layer of tape make it more difficult for them to hone it later. The tape wears down quickly, I actually use a micro thin PVC tape to hone with, and by the time I'm hitting my final hone the tape is almost transparent on the spine.
On most blades I use my pasted strops without the tape, and the blade geometry is not effected enough to make a pasted paddle strop ineffective on the edge.

But when you have a blade with gold on the spine, I've seen 1/4 micron paste eat through that gold... and I won't be the one doing that.

Your argument about it being a dishonest blade is too broad, what is a regrind then? Or if I hand sand a blade, and round off the hone marks in the process?
Is that a dishonest blade? No, it's a restored blade. There are members here with the skill to take an otherwise ruined blade, regrind and/or refinish it, re-etch it, and reapply the gold wash... I call that restoration, not falsification or fraud.

I personally will continue to tape my spines, as well as the spines of the razors entrusted to me to hone. I do not consider this to be dishonest, on the contrary, I am doing my best to preserve these razors. My work is not enough to distort the geometry, nor do I believe my honing would distort it over the next 20 or 30 years. :shrug:
You can call it what ever you want.

I am going to respectfully keep my big mouth shut on this one.....:fim:

Voted with the curtain drawn!!!

(Plus I really can't add anything else that the other restorers haven't already said way better than I would have)

If I buy a brand new car or say for your sake a second hand from the 'used car' market.

Would I want to go out and scratch all the paintwork with a screwdriver?

How much do you think the car is worth if it has prestine paintwork compared to the same car with scrapes all over it?

Yes, it's another whacky analogy in line with the one said previous but I'm really struggling to agree with any argument against taping in same post.

I agree with Mike but add that I'll never hone a razor without tape.

If I buy a razor I'll check for spine wear and if it's too much, I will not buy. And if I buy a razor that has been pre-honed w/o tape, I will reset the bevel so that it is now a 'taped' razor. You can be sure if you buy a razor from me, it will be taped.

Everyone has their choice and opinions and I would never preach that one way is the 'correct' way.

Have fun!

The only time I hone without tape is if there is already spine wear, and it has scratches in it, then I will take the tape off after I'm done on my 8k, and do the remainder of my honing without, to polish the spine...
I figure if there's going to be a flat spot on the spine, it might as well have a mirror polish.

I very very rarely ever tape the spine when honing a razor. Doesn't mean I won't. I do tend to tape when removing a chip or if someone has sanded up an edge or really unevenly honed or ground when and I need to remove a lot of metal. The other situation that takes me to the tape is a Damascus razor as I try not to mess up the pattern. I hone well over a hundred razors every month and it is not often that I go to the tape.

You guys have fun.

Lynn

I think we should back down on the rhetoric a bit here. I can't imagine anyone taping the spine of a razor to be "dishonest." In fact, most of the dishonest guys selling bad razors on eBay would never even think of something as trivial as using tape on the spine. That's something that only a person knowledgeable about razors would do.

Furthermore, after having honed several hundred razors and making a few of my own, I don't find that hone wear makes much of a difference either way. On a typical full hollow razor, the blade is actually the same thickness most of the way up to the spine. Taking a full hollow 7/8 to a 5/8 wouldn't make it unusable. It would shave just fine.

There is a wide range of geometries present in vintage blades. Several members have done some calculations and found that the typical range is 17 to 19 degrees, but I just worked on a razor that was probably 15 degrees or less. A Feather blade has an angle that's upwards of 20 degrees, and they shave OK. :)

Spine wear says more about the skills of the previous owners than the razor's age or how well it will shave. A skillfully honed and stropped razor will probably last several lifetimes. If you did 10 touch-up laps every two or three months, even a lifetime of wear wouldn't be too bad. But you get a clod with a heavy hand on the hone and strop, and he'll wear out a blade in a few years. (Wouldn't it be less "true" if you honed out a big chip without taping the spine? You would put years of hone wear on the blade in 30 minutes.)

For the record, I sometimes use tape, depending on the razor. If it's really nice, I'll tape it. Most wedges get taped. I usually tell the buyer or owner when I do, just so they can keep that in mind while touching it up.

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

The point about not being able to see the reduction in the width of the blade is that such a blade has lost its integrity. The springiness has gone. If you tape the spine its almost impossible to tell. Yes it will shave(like a butter knife) but not with the same feel of the original. Not as the manufacturer had originally intended.

This just simply is not true, I have shaved (frequently) with razors that are extremely worn from their previous lives. In fact one of my best shavers is a WB that started out life as one of the 9/8 meat choppers and is now below 8/8. This razor, using your definition, would constitute a "butter knife" and that is just not the case.

As for the springiness of a blade, that is a property of the steel more so than the shape or size of the cutting utensil. Think about it, the very edge of a razor is exactly the same whether it is a full hollow, full wedge, worn down hollow or otherwise. The cutting edge is a triangle. Period. It does not matter what kind of wear it has, the metal composition remains unchanged and the performance isn't altered by the amount of metal behind that triangle at the edge.

What I mean by illegal should not be taken literally. If a razor has had a taped spine, it is not what I would call an "honest" razor.

My final point refers to razors that have damascus blades or decorated spines. Well to be honest, if the only way to hone such a razor is with tape, I would suggest to you that there s a fundamental design fault.

If you want to consider every utensil as a utilitarian object, sure. But some people enjoy aesthetics as well.

I have had (and sold on this forum) a DOVO (Micarta) that has fancy etching all over the blade. It will take years of honing before the honing might upset the esthetic properties. Infact, the blade quality will deteriorate before the esthetics.

Again, the blade quality should not deteriorate with use.

Send me one of the razors you've used to formulate this opinion and I'll fix you right up, there really should be nothing wrong with the steel (unless it lost it's heat treat somehow).

What's the problem with the fine honing line on the spine of a damascus blade getting marginally wider over time.

I think the problem comes from people learning to hone. Overhoning and then selling off a "dishonest" razor that has been taped and then overhoned.

That is a separate problem. Are you suggesting that everyone who uses tape is such an amateur?

I'm not referring to forum members who tend to understand these things as well as I do, but there are a lot of dishonest razors out there. I think that taping will proliferate rather than reduce the problem. That's my only real concern. Otherwise I'm just being a bit mischievous to give you the argument for not taping.:)

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Agreed, discussion is the only means of advancement, but you've got to be willing to see where your argument is faulted to be able to do said advancing.

I believe that "dishonest" was an exagerated only expresion used by "Englsh" to emphasise his oppinion.
I construe in some measure the need of taping the spine from a profesional honer who has cliends with different thinking, but does not means that this method preserves the initial manufacturers intentions.
I believe that if you hone with tape you must allways finish without tape.
Honing a razor entirely with tape and not inform the user for this, confuses him when he try to touch-up the razor or to hone it and he is in his first steps on honing.

I tape for one reason and one reason only, aesthetics.
When I first started honing my own razors, I was using an old Diamond king barber's hone... It's probably a 10k, smooth as glass, and it still doeas a great job.
But it left faint swirl marks. I didn't like this, so I would hone my razors, then take them into my shop, and buff out the swirl marks on a buffing wheel.
When I got some razors with blueing on the spine, a buffing wheel was no longer an option, and even my little 10k hone would rub the blueing right off.
I tried scotch tape, and found it to be acceptable, until I found SRP, and read about electrical tape... hey, why reinvent the wheel?
I haven't looked back.
It keeps my razors looking the way I want them to, and I have noticed no difference in shave quality.

When I'm looking at a razor to purchase, I would rather buy one that has had the spine taped, if the seller is accurate in his description, then he isn't going to sell it as new, it is a nice used razor.

I think it all comes down to personal preference, that's all.

I do not see how my argument has faulted at all. I'm not talking about the "Forum". I'm talking about the big wide world of e bay and flee markets and antique stores etc.

I also have not said that the guys who refurbish or hone razors in a professional capacity don't know what they are doing or that they would falsify or deliberately defraud or be dishonest. I have neither written, said, implied. or believe that. Incidentally, I'm not a nutter, ridiculous or whacky and I'm not trying to preach.

When I purchase a razor, I look at the spine and the width of the honing bevel on the spine to determine how often and how well the razor has been honed in the past. An uneven or irregular width tells me there may be problems and to be cautious and the width of the bevel tells me how well used the razor is. That's what people who know a little about second hand razors do.

If a razor has been taped throughout it's life, this will not help , because the spine honing bevel has been protected and has no story to tell. I can not tell how much metal has been removed from the edge. I also can not easily tell what the original size of the blade might have been.

For the sake of argument, lets say I like the feel of a 5/8" full hollow ground razor.

If I see a razor for sale that is described as 5/8" that has a spine honing bevel of more than 2mm, I know that that blade started its life as probably a 6/8" razor. I don't want a honed down 6/8" razor so I won't buy it.

If that razor's spine had been taped, the spine bevel would be less than 1mm and you could easily think that the razor was a little used 5/8"razor.

When you shave with it however, it will feel stiffer than a normal 5/8" razor because 1/8" of the very flexible part of the blade has been honed away.

That's the only point I am making.

The width of the spine will say you more about the size that must be the blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

I also have not said that the guys who refurbish or hone razors in a professional capacity don't know what they are doing or that they would falsify or deliberately defraud or be dishonest. I have neither written, said, implied. or believe that. Incidentally, I'm not a nutter, ridiculous or whacky and I'm not trying to preach.

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Oops! Well, maybe you're not a nutter but you sounded like one when you said "In my opininion it should be illegal if you ever intend to trade the razor." I know you were just using a exaggeration to generate discussion though, which I think it did :)

And if the pro's know what they're doing and wouldn't deliberately be dishonest, then taping the spine of a razor is not like clocking the mileage meter on a car.

I will admit I thought more about the tape after reading your post than I had previously. I tape one razor and don't tape the other, and will probably leave it that way since I am still trying to level and even out the pressure I use when I hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

I do not see how my argument has faulted at all. I'm not talking about the "Forum". I'm talking about the big wide world of e bay and flee markets and antique stores etc.

If I see a razor for sale that is described as 5/8" that has a spine honing bevel of more than 2mm, I know that that blade started its life as probably a 6/8" razor. I don't want a honed down 6/8" razor so I won't buy it.

If that razor's spine had been taped, the spine bevel would be less than 1mm and you could easily think that the razor was a little used 5/8"razor.

When you shave with it however, it will feel stiffer than a normal 5/8" razor because 1/8" of the very flexible part of the blade has been honed away.

That's the only point I am making.

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I said that your argument was faulted because you kept saying that a razor with hone wear "shaves like a butter knife." This statement implies that the razor doesn't shave at all and that is just not true.

If you meant to say that the razor no longer shaves exactly like it used to because of the altered geometry, then I agree, the edge will be slightly stiffer from the decreased moment arm. But I'll ask you this, how do you know what it is supposed to feel like? I mean, how can you discern what every 5/8 is supposed to feel like, since they are all slightly different?

It's a good principle, to let a razor age as it should and most of the time I hone without tape. But when you make such a bold statement that applies (in part) to other forum members, you have to expect some friction since there are valid reasons for doing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

I do not see how my argument has faulted at all. I'm not talking about the "Forum". I'm talking about the big wide world of e bay and flee markets and antique stores etc.

I also have not said that the guys who refurbish or hone razors in a professional capacity don't know what they are doing or that they would falsify or deliberately defraud or be dishonest. I have neither written, said, implied. or believe that. Incidentally, I'm not a nutter, ridiculous or whacky and I'm not trying to preach.

When I purchase a razor, I look at the spine and the width of the honing bevel on the spine to determine how often and how well the razor has been honed in the past. An uneven or irregular width tells me there may be problems and to be cautious and the width of the bevel tells me how well used the razor is. That's what people who know a little about second hand razors do.

If a razor has been taped throughout it's life, this will not help , because the spine honing bevel has been protected and has no story to tell. I can not tell how much metal has been removed from the edge. I also can not easily tell what the original size of the blade might have been.

For the sake of argument, lets say I like the feel of a 5/8" full hollow ground razor.

If I see a razor for sale that is described as 5/8" that has a spine honing bevel of more than 2mm, I know that that blade started its life as probably a 6/8" razor. I don't want a honed down 6/8" razor so I won't buy it.

If that razor's spine had been taped, the spine bevel would be less than 1mm and you could easily think that the razor was a little used 5/8"razor.

When you shave with it however, it will feel stiffer than a normal 5/8" razor because 1/8" of the very flexible part of the blade has been honed away.

That's the only point I am making.

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It’s a known standard for all razors… (well most):
3/8th and 4/8th razors have 2/16th inch spine width
5/8th and 6/8th razors have 3/16th inch spine width
7/8th and larger have ¼ inch and larger spine width

This is so the edge angle is between 15 to 19 degrees; razors shave well at these angles.
If a taped 6/8th razor was honed down to 5/8th it would shave well because the angle is still within the standard tolerance for the hardened steel.

Any razor out of these measurements would look “odd” and quickly recognized (tape or no tape)… it would take a long time or reckless honing to get a razor out of tolerance, and chances are they wont bother to tape the spine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smythe

It’s a known standard for all razors… (well most):
3/8th and 4/8th razors have 2/16th inch spine width
5/8th and 6/8th razors have 3/16th inch spine width
7/8th and larger have ¼ inch and larger spine width

This is so the edge angle is between 15 to 19 degrees; razors shave well at these angles.
If a taped 6/8th razor was honed down to 5/8th it would shave well because the angle is still within the standard tolerance for the hardened steel.
Any razor out of these measurements would look “odd” and quickly recognized (tape or no tape)… it would take a long time or reckless honing to get a razor out of tolerance, and chances are they wont bother to tape the spine.

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I dont know where you find the masurements you write as "known stardard for all razors" but are absolutely incorect.

Each manufacturers size has different spine width
A small number of razors has spine width lower than the "standard manufacturers width" but not larger and absolutely not the width of the higher size.
And it is alot of difference in feeling and not only, between 15 and 19 degrees.

Just calculated:
All my razors have an angle from 14 degrees minimum( bengall, Dorko for barber use) to 16 degrees maximum (dorko stainless, Henkels friodur- new, henckels made-) with the majority of others between 15 and 16

Lets go with an example:

A razor with 6mm spine width and 21 mm blade ( Dorko Stainless) has 16 deg angle.

If you hone it without tape 3mm then you have 19 deg angle

To remain 16 deg you need a spine of 5,6 mm , a spine wear of 0,2 mm in width on each side.

If you hone with tape another 1mm you have 20 deg angle.

The spine of the razors is so designed to obtain in aproximation the wear needed to maintain the angle.
Spine wear must be proportional with the width of the bevel
On new razors the spine wear surface is minimal because the bevel width is minimal.
So if after time the bevel width (the surface who touch the hone) is larger and you need more honing and the spine wear surface becomes larger to compensate this.
This is easier to observe on wedges

Edit: All razors measured are new or new old stock honed once lightly

I didn't know there were standard dimensions either but it makes sense, the spine width has to be a function of the length.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yannis

I dont know where you find the masurements you write as "known stardard for all razors" but are absolutely incorect.

Each manufacturers size has different spine width
A small number of razors has spine width lower than the "standard manufacturers width" but not larger and absolutely not the width of the higher size.
And it is alot of difference in feeling and not only, between 15 and 19 degrees.

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Yanis,
I will cannot argue this point… go measure a few razors and prove it to your self.

Each manufacture may have different spine width but whatever it is they maintained an angle between 15 and 19 degrees… this is a mater of physics… a compromise between steel hardness and thinness to achieve a keen cutting edge.

When properly honed it will shave well… and if your skin is sensitive enough you my feel the difference between the angles depending on the composition of the steel and how it was hardened and honed.

Another calculation:

I have a very very used full hollow ground razor I bought on ebay for the scales only.
It have severe spine wear and the size of the blade was shorter than expected and with large bevel width.
Until now my impression was that this razor was unusable.

I measured it

The spine width just on point before the wear of the spine was 5mm
From the size of the tang I know that this razor was 5/8.
This means that the angle was 16 degrees.

The width of the spine with wear is 4,3mm and the size of the blade 15.5mm
- 15,8 degrees angle calculated :eek:
The same angle ! A very serviseable razor.
Only needs more time on the hone because it has a wide bevel.


18,3 degrees if this razor was honed with tape.
Edit: A dead or half dead razor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yannis

Just calculated:
All my razors have an angle from 14 degrees minimum( bengall, Dorko for barber use) to 16 degrees maximum (dorko stainless, Henkels friodur- new, henckels made-) with the majority of others between 15 and 16

Lets go with an example:

A razor with 6mm spine width and 21 mm blade ( Dorko Stainless) has 16 deg angle.

If you hone it without tape 3mm then you have 19 deg angle

To remain 16 deg you need a spine of 5,6 mm , a spine wear of 0,2 mm in width on each side.

If you hone with tape another 1mm you have 20 deg angle.

The spine of the razors is so designed to obtain in aproximation the wear needed to maintain the angle.
Spine wear must be proportional with the width of the bevel
On new razors the spine wear surface is minimal because the bevel width is minimal.
So if after time the bevel width (the surface who touch the hone) is larger and you need more honing and the spine wear surface becomes larger to compensate this.
This is easier to observe on wedges

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Yannis,
If you hone it without tape you will still have a 16 degree angle because the spine will were with the edge thus preserving the angle.
What you probably intended to say is “if you hone with tape…”

Please allow me to convert your razor’s metric measurements to the standard of days gone by:
1/4"=.25"=6.3mm
7/8"=.87"=22.2
OK so your Dorko is 6mm x 21… that only means your razor has “been around the block” a few times.

So based on your measured Dorko, I can tell you with certainty that you have a 7/8th razor with a ¼” spine… that’s about 16 degrees (i wont bore you with the math)... please have a second looks at the so called "standard", do you still think its “absolutely inaccurate”?.
Now…if you tape the spine on your Dorko and hone down to 6/8th (19mm) the angle would be 18 degrees… still within the standard but probably not the best shave in the world (depending on the steel of course) and you would be hard pressed to find a 6/8 straight with a 1/4 inch spine that was made that way by the manufacture.
Hone to a 5/8th and it would be 21 degrees… now your razor looks “odd” and without even checking for spine wear I would not buy it (someone else may buy it for the scales though).

If you measure enough razors you will find variances between even the same brand/model manufactured at the same time. This doesn’t always mean that the razor was improperly honed or taped or whatever by the previous owner(s)… it means vintage straight razors were ground by hand… in fact new ones are still ground by hand today.

When my baber went to barbering school in the sixties he spent the first two weeks doing nothing but honing! They used eletrical tape. Wether to save the spine or to save the bevel, I dont know, I'll have to ask next haircut. Either way, I dont see how this would promote "dishonest" razors in the 2nd hand market. Most of the people sell ing these 2nd hand razors wouldnt know what to do or why, secondly these razors already show their hone wear and taping the spine will not roll back the odometer and eliminate the hone wear. In conclusion all I can say is "to each his own", sometimes there is niether right or wrong simply difference in technique, style or opinion.

Yes, I occasionally tape my razors - depending on the blade