First razor honed - advice needed

By way of background, I bought a shave ready Wapi three weeks ago and have had about 15 successful shaves with it. I strop it before each use and it still passes the HHT which makes me conclude that my stropping technique is satisfactory.

I have a DMT 1200, belgian blue and coticule. I have bought 3 straights off fleabay with a view to practice honing. I honed my first razor today, a Modoso 5/8 which had a few tiny nicks in the blade. After removing the nicks on the DMT, I used the belgian blue with slurry, then the coticule and finally stropped the razor. It felt sharp but not as sharp as my Wapi and it wouldn't pass the HHT, although shaved arm hair fine.

I have just had a quick test shave with it and it shaved fairly well, but not as good as my Wapi. However, for my first attempt I am pleased. I have spent quite a bit of time watching heavydutystg series of videos on honing which have been really helpful.

How do I get that elusive sharpness? Is the basis of a sharp edge the bevel and therefore without a spot on bevel, no amount of time on the coticule will result in a super sharp edge? Or is a sharp blade a combination of a good bevel and honing technique which will all improve with practice?
Finally, as I haven't got the sharpness yet that I am after, am I best dulling the edge and starting back on the DMT and working my way up to the coticule again? If so, what is the best way off taking the edge off the razor?

I know guys spend years honing before they get it spot on and I'm not expecting to get there quickly myself, I would just be grateful for some pointers on the best way forward. I am happy to invest the time, just need to know if it's best to start back down on the DMT and try to get a better bevel.

I am really enjoying the whole straight experience and the challenge of honing.

Smalleyboy,

You seem to be doing very well. Way better than me, when I was starting out.
Sharpness in in the DMT. You need to work on the DMT, till the sharpness maxes out. The HHT should go well when the work on the DMT is finished. You can strop for about 20 laps before trying, but if you manage to pass the test without stropping, that's even better. When you become really good at the TPT, you won't have to use the HHT, but it IS a good test, to know when the bevel is properly set.
Here's a tip that was important to me: I cut a string of freshly washed hair off my head and keep that in a small box, as stock to do the HHT. It makes a lot of difference with my otherwise oily hair.

You'll only reach that level of sharpness, coming off the DMT, if you use the lightest possible pressure, at least during the final 20 laps, or so.
On the videos you can see how Heavydutesg135 does his stroke pretty fast. He doesn't mention it, but I found out speed does make a difference with pressure. Fast and swift is more likely to minimize the pressure. You can turn the razor as slow as you like, but the stroke itself might benefit from a bit of speed. (It improves with practice too)
Use that same minimal pressure during polishing stages.
Don't raise to much slurry on the blue. I observed that a heavy slurry can abrade the crispness of the edge a bit.
If the razor doesn't pass the HHT after the coticule, try some extra stropping, with a bit more pressure than you normally use, at the same time increasing the force to hold your strop taut with an equal amount. Don't be afraid of 100 extra laps. I know I needed them sometimes, when I was getting the hang of it.

Way to go,

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

How do I get that elusive sharpness? Is the basis of a sharp edge the bevel and therefore without a spot on bevel, no amount of time on the coticule will result in a super sharp edge? Or is a sharp blade a combination of a good bevel and honing technique which will all improve with practice?
Finally, as I haven't got the sharpness yet that I am after, am I best dulling the edge and starting back on the DMT and working my way up to the coticule again? If so, what is the best way off taking the edge off the razor?

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First off, you've done an excellent job for your first blade if the shave was at all bearable. Congratulations!

Secondly, there's no need to go back down to lower grits if the edge is shaving. If the bevel wasn't set properly, there would be no shaving action at all.

Third, your Wapi may have been finished on an uber-fine polishing stone or paste that could not be matched by your coticule if it's life depended on it. But it is also a possibility that the blades have different steel properties, and no hone will render them equals.

Keep in mind though that an edge straight off the hone will be slightly rough, 100 passes or so on a strop couldn't hurt.

You could try using the lightest pressure possible for 20 or so more strokes on the coticule to see if things improve. Do it again if you feel there wasn't much improvement, it is pretty hard to over hone on the Coticule. But you may be at max performance for that blade currently, hard to tell.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Secondly, there's no need to go back down to lower grits if the edge is shaving. If the bevel wasn't set properly, there would be no shaving action at all.

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I couldn't disagree more. While I was learning to hone, I have shaved numerous times with an edge that wasn't improving, no matter how many laps with and without slurry I performed in any combinations on a Belgian Blue and a Coticule. I can assure you that it were several hundred of laps performed over many days in between test shaves (that edge did shave, but pull ATG). It was not until Heavydutysg135 and Josh Earl convinced me that I needed to do some work on a coarser (and faster) hone, that I managed to break loose from frustration. 30 laps on a DMT, and my edge entered a whole new world. 50 on the blue and 50 on the yellow later I got my first truly shaveready edge. (but it depends on what one calls shaveready, doesn't it?)

Bart.

Thanks for the replies. Conflicting advice, or rather differing opinions.

I possibly got lucky on getting a shave ready edge with my first hone. I have two other practice razors which I shall work on over the weekend before coming back to the Modoso.

Bart - is it possible to carry out a successful HHT after just the DMT? I appreciate that the HHT isn't always a good sign of shaveability.

I need to focus on lighter strokes and do more stropping. I only did about 20 passes on the strop.

Finally, if I do decide to go back to the DMT, do I need to dull the blade so I'm starting with a 'blank canvas'. If so, how best to dull the blade, a bit of reverse honing??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

Thanks for the replies. Conflicting advice, or rather differing opinions.

I possibly got lucky on getting a shave ready edge with my first hone. I have two other practice razors which I shall work on over the weekend before coming back to the Modoso.

Bart - is it possible to carry out a successful HHT after just the DMT? I appreciate that the HHT isn't always a good sign of shaveability.

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Yes, you should pass the HHT after the DMT, maybe you need to strop it first, but it's perfectly doable. The HHT isn't a test of shaveability, but I've never encountered a razor that passed the HHT and wasn't a great shaver. So... if you lack the experience to know for sure that the bevel is properly set... aim for the HHT, and you're safe to move ahead. Later, you'll learn to rely on the TPT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smalleyboy

Finally, if I do decide to go back to the DMT, do I need to dull the blade so I'm starting with a 'blank canvas'. If so, how best to dull the blade, a bit of reverse honing??

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You don't need to dull your razor. There's no reason whatsoever to do that. Just perform about 30 more light laps on the DMT. Perform your tests: the TPT, although you may not know what to "feel" for, and the HHT. If it fails, strop 20 laps on clean leather, then try again. If it passes, make sure it passes on different parts of the blade. (By all means: make sure you use clean, preferably thick hair) If it doesn't pass after that: try another 30 passes. If you still don't make the HHT by then, you could try shaving arm hair, which should go absolutely effortlessly, the hair on your arm should practically fall without popping. Remember: the sharpness is already there, your razor only lacks the proper polishing to shave comfortably.
The rest is easy: 50 light laps on the blue with llight slurry and 50 light laps on the yellow with only water. Strop 50 to 100 passes on a taut leather strop. Perform a TPT every now and then and test shave. The blade should shave very comfortably.

Good luck,
Bart.

IMHO dropping back to the DMT would be my last resort.

I would try more laps on the yellow coticule first, without a slurry, perhaps 25-100 laps, and then strop and shave test again.

The next stage would be to drop back to the belgian blue for a bit of work then to the yellow again, strop and test shave.

My approach is to use the least aggressive method possible. It is a bit difficult to put the steel back on the edge once you have honed it off!:)

Bart, since I don't know your exact methods, nor equipment, it's hard to say where this discrepancy is coming into play. But if your blade was so dull that the coticule didn't make it any sharper after that many passes, it is really a mystery as to how it was shaving hair at all.

I don't mean that as an insult or anything, it's just that I have never had a blade that was even close to cutting hair that didn't respond very well to a little more time on the coticule. It is one of the fastest cutting stones out there and can be used to actually set the bevel if you want to take the time.

As far as the HHT and shave readiness goes, a blade can easily pass the HHT with a wire edge and will feel like a hacksaw on your face. So it is really just a sign that the blade has become about as sharp as it is going to get, and that finishing stones can polish it to a comfortable edge.

As usual Randy, great advice! One can always go to a coarser hone if need be, but why make the leap right away?

I have a pair of razors I picked up on e-bay. They are exactly the same and I shall try honing them this weekend. If I get similar results to my first honing experience then I shall use one razor for Barts approach and the other for Russells approach and post the results.

I can follow Bart's logic that if you attain a sharp edge on the DMT, then the blue and coticule are used to 'polish' the edge. I think this is what heavydutystg shows in his video series. However, I also follow what Russell and randydance say, as the coticule, given plenty of time, could set a bevel and more work on it should improve razor sharpness.

I suspect that Bart's suggestion to drop back to the DMT, would give the quickest results as it shifts most metal, however, the risk of messing up the edge is higher for a noob. Adopting Russell's suggestion of going back only a single step to the coticule will take slightly longer but with less chance of rolling the edge.

What I have realised is that my strokes were not light enough and I only stropped for 20 passes and not at least 100, which seems to be suggested by both.

Thanks for the insight into your individual techniques.

Pass the TNT and the marker test, at the same time, on the DMT E 1200. Now you have a set edge. Do 5 to 20 more extremely light laps to a) get the most from the 1200, and b) be certain the bevel is really there.

The HHT can be most unreliable if your hair is very fine. Practice for 10 minutes on using the TPT on a DE razor blade (a slightly used one, one shave maybe, is even better).

I've never used a coticule so my advice must stop here.

Edit: I like to be certain that I really have 2 bevels that meet at the edge before the finer grits start working it. If you believe you already have set the edge, do a marker and TNT test first on the coticule before returning to the 1200.

Well, essentially bart and I are saying the same thing: If the razor isn't absolutely wonderful, it needs more work.

It's just that Bart is recommending that you go back to the beginning and start over, and I (and Randy) are saying you may not need to go that far.

Which method saves you the most time depends on the precise condition of each blade (which will be slightly different each time), so any conclusion you draw will have to have a stipulation that the blade condition is variable.

Lastly, time should be the least of your worries as you learn to hone. Take your time, figure out what is actually happening to the blade if you do an x stroke, use two handed pressure, back-hone, form a slurry etc. Check the blade (TPT) after every 5 or so strokes and get a feel for how the edge progresses on your stones, then adjust our advice to fit your experience with your specific methods.

Bart, since I don't know your exact methods, nor equipment, it's hard to say where this discrepancy is coming into play. But if your blade was so dull that the coticule didn't make it any sharper after that many passes, it is really a mystery as to how it was shaving hair at all.

I don't mean that as an insult or anything, it's just that I have never had a blade that was even close to cutting hair that didn't respond very well to a little more time on the coticule.

One very likely possible reason why this could happen is that the sharpness of the blade is not even from heal to toe. Some portions could be fairly sharp and thus shave ok while other portions are still very far from being sharp and will require a fast cutting stone to set a working edge. A bevel creation stone like a DMT 1200 or Norton 1-4K should be used until the razor is very sharp from heal to toe. Then you should be able to make quick and significant progress on the Belgians or other polishing stones. Here is some information that might help you: http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...eo-series.html



It is one of the fastest cutting stones out there and can be used to actually set the bevel if you want to take the time.

I respectfully disagree with the bold portion based on my experiences but agree with the second statement. The cutting power of a coticule and a DMT 1200 are not even in the same ballpark imo. If you are spending too much time on the coticule it is not the most efficient/best stone for the job based on where your edge is at that time.

David

Time is not a worry for me.

I would rather go slowly and like you say, understand what is going on. This whole straight razor thing is kind of addictive.

I think I shall drop back to the coticule and spend some more time on it and then do some serious laps on the strop to see if the sharpness improves.

Thanks for the input and thoughts from all.

Sorry about the small misunderstanding; in my mind, I make a distinction between stones and hones, and don't always type out that I intend to exclude artificial/barber hones and diamond hones when I say stones (in fact sometimes I mis-type and have to go back and edit my post). I meant that the Coticule is one of the fastest cutting naturally occurring sharpening stones. It is obviously nowhere near the DMTs for speed.

But I still maintain my original observation that "several hundred laps" on a Coticule with slurry, and then without, ought to have made any blade improve if it was even sharp enough to be considered for a test shave. If the blade wasn't assessed thoroughly prior to the various test shaves then there is an error in procedure that doesn't justify the conclusion that the Coticule is ineffective until after you go back and start over.

The big point here that we're kind of dodging is that the method used to bring a blade up to speed depends entirely on it's starting condition. And that accurately assessing it's condition just takes experience. Sure, going through a progression then starting over again if it isn't quite smooth enough will get you there, eventually, but may be entirely unnecessary if a few passes on the finishing stone will do.

It's all a matter of accurately assessing what has happened to the blade, and what kind of progression will make it do what you want.

Smalleyboy,

I'm sorry this thread did became all argumentative. Although interesting, I don't think that's peculiarly helpful for someone who's taking first steps in honing. I'll refrain from addressing the various side points, and attempt to bring this back to basics.
First, I'm very sure all gentelmen offering advice in the previous posts all are fully capable of getting a great edge on a razor. So, by all means, don't think we are contradicting each other, although it may appear that way.

The simplified basics of a razor's edge boil down to two things: sharpness and smoothness.
Sharpness comes from the two panes of the cutting bevel meeting each other in the smallest possible straight and even line. For shaving hair, the width of that line is typically around 0.5 micron. Wider is duller, smaller is sharper.
Smoothness is determined by the scratch pattern on the panes, and defines how well the edge avoids scraping cells of your skin while it cuts hair.

There are other principles at play as well, but as far as I'm concerned, they are all under debate, and not needed to be brought into account when you're new to this.
There are various methods to produce that sharp and smooth edge, but the one that suits your set of hones best is often called "the progressive honing method".

I personally like to think of it as:
stage1: aim for sharpness (create that bevel with the smallest possible meeting point) and

stage2: polish the panes of the bevel to a shaving comfort that fits your face.

Now, I'm not saying that you cannot do some of the work from stage 1 at stage 2, but, if you're learning, why confuse yourself?

I can see 2 reasons not to:
1. Sharpness comes from setting a good bevel (stage 1). If you failed to do so before you polished (stage 2), then, go back and get it right this time. Ok, it might be possible to correct your mistake with fumbling during stage 2, but you are practicing, right?

2. You particular hones, and the way you use them, don't allow for much bevel creation.
The Belgian Blue really is a polishing hone. Period. It excels in that. On my woodworking tools, I jump from 600 grit right to the blue, and it's amazing how reliable and fast he removes the 600 grit scratches. BUT, he doesn't like to eat his own scratches, and as soon as he evened out that lower grit scratch pattern, he stops doing anything. You could hone till your arm falls off, that Blue wont do anything more for your edge.
The Coticule with only water and very low pressure is a very slow hone in that fashion. Yet, both are stringent conditions to be rewarded with a premium shaving edge. You could raise some slurry on that coticule to add some bevel-formation power to its polishing abilities, but you would be up for a surprise. (Try it, and you'll know:D, I'm not about to confuse you even more, at this point)

So now you know, why I advised you to go back to the DMT. Perhaps you're only 5 laps off. Well, I think you ought to do them.

About the HHT: I value the HHT more as a sharpness (and thus stage 1 test) than as a final shavereadiness test. You can lie to yourself about the HHT ("my hair is too thin") but the fact is the HHT won't lie to you. A truly sharp bevel will do something with a hair. Any hair, as long as it's not greasy. The razor might just split the hair, or you may need to drag it across (never along) the edge a litte bit, or you might have to cut rather close to the holding point (if the hair is very light). You even might need to strop a few laps first. But the fact remains: it takes you 1 good honing job to know how your hair responds to the HHT off a DMT1200, and then you'll have a solid test to know when you're done with stage 1. (I bet that you'll see your HHT-results of the DMT improve a little bit further, as you gain more experience)
At the same time, I would like to emphasize on the TPT. It's a far more versatile test, once you develop the proper feel for it.

Bart.

Once again thanks to all for the replies.

I am new to honing and as I said at the start, I have 3 cheap razors to practice on. My first attempt went fairly well, but I was frustrated that I couldn't seem to find that elusive sharpness I want.

I believe that my strokes on the hones were not light enough and I didn't strop enough. I only discovered this through the posts on this thread. So already, I am further on than when I made my first honing attempt and when I try again later today I shall aim for a lighter stroke and more passes on the strop.

The joy of this forum is that not everyone does things the same. Whilst, it can be confusing to a newb, all these differing views, it does give you something else to try when a particular approach doesn't work.

So it's off for some more practice, practice, practice with the honing.