How polished should my edge look?

I was wondering how polished my edge should look when looking at it with an eye loupe. I have a 5x loupe and my edge looks rather scratchy. Should it be more polished looking? I am completely new to this and am having a bit of a hard time getting my razor to pass the HHT. I have to give it a little slicing motion to get it to cut hair.Is it because of my edge. Also, I was wondering how light do I have to be to get that real sharp edge. I have not put a lot of time into my edge yet though. I would say about an hour at most on and off.I keep getting interrupted by the wife.Perhaps I need more time on the hone to get the edge needed. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

I think there are some photo's posted on the forum somewhere, showing mircoscope images of the edge using various grits.

You'll find them using the 'search' function and selecting 'show results in posts'.

'How polished' is pretty relative. Hard to describe. Your best comparison would be to a known shave-ready edge.

I have 5x, 10x and 15x loupes and I would suggest that you find a 10x. It's hard (for me) to see microchips in the edge with less than 10x.

Thanks. I will have to get a better loupe and keep trying.:D

The way the edge looks as far as polishing goes has nothing to do with sharpness. As a matter of fact your edge could be like a mirror and the razor may not shave at all. You can look at the scratch pattern but basically you do the usual tests especially test shaving to determine when the razor is shave ready.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The way the edge looks as far as polishing goes has nothing to do with sharpness. As a matter of fact your edge could be like a mirror and the razor may not shave at all. You can look at the scratch pattern but basically you do the usual tests especially test shaving to determine when the razor is shave ready.

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+1

FWIW, I've had razors that looked mirror smooth under a microscope (nothing but glassy blackness and a smooth edge) but did not shave me comfortably, and razors that looked like they'd been taken to a grindstone (under a microscope, anyway) with perhaps just the very edge a little smoother, and they've been some of the best shavers I've had. Try getting the razor to pass the thumbnail test all the way along the edge after honing, then either switch to a finer hone or the strop, and progress to the thumbpad test and or hanging hair test as shown elsewhere on this site. I've gotten much better shaves since following these seemingly simple tests (again) rather than relying on the microscope, which can be misleading.


John P.

Honing is a all about function and not looks. Use the simple tests and take the razor only to the mike when you really can't work out why your razor does not cut hairs. It may show you micro-chipping or tiny rust spots. OTOH I have recently honed a Cyril Salter razor for a B&B member that would not cut a single hair although the edge looks better under the mike than some of my best blades.

With a 10x loupe you just see a very shiny line but sometimes not the very small microchipping. Nor will you see if the cutting edge is rounded where both bevels meet.

So even with a loupe: there's more than meets the eyes.

A razor needs some teeth to grab the hairs, if you try to get it perfectly smooth under magnification you will end up with a wire edge.
I usually try to remove most of the scratches from the previous hone. By leaving just a little bit of the scratches, you can be sure you aren't overhoning, and that you are leaving the razor with some grip. Learn to go by the feel of the edge, and do your test shaves. That's the best indicator of shave readiness.

I never did a pyramid with this razor. I am going to do a pyramid and then try the thumbnail and thumbpad test:eek: and see what happens. I am such a novice but want to learn.

Thanks guys

Is there a preferred pyramid to use? I read about the 1,3,5,3,1 4k pyramid but am wondering if there is a better or more preferred one to use.

I found what I needed. I shouldn't be so lazy and just do a search sometimes. :fim:

I have found that the 10x loupe best shows you that you have a good V shaped bevel.

I have a 200x computer microscope and it shows you lots of detail, but as the guys say above, the only real test is a shave.

You said you have to use a slicing motion to cut hair. Yes this can help, but to be honest you shouldn't have to do this and it tells me you may need to get the edge a little sharper. Before going to a hone again I would suggest that you first look to your stropping technique. Try doing at least 50 return passes on your strop and see if that improves the ease of shaving your beard. The blade should cut your beard quite effortlessly.

How an edge looks under magnification depends a lot on the lighting conditions and the viewing angle. An edge may look like a mirror, turn the razor a few degrees and and that same edge looks like the Grand Canyon. If the razor is partially lit from the back, light diffraction at the very edge might even project "microchips" that aren't even truly there.
With some experience you can learn to look for flat bevel panes, ruling out roundness, but even then, it is not possible to see the width of the line that's formed by the tip of the bevel triangle. Hence you can't "see sharpness" with optical magnification. (an electron microscope aimed directly to the tip of the bevel makes it possible to accurately measure the width of the bevel tip).

On another note: there's a big difference between a magnification device's resolution and it's magnification factor. I'm not talking about digital resolution, but about optical resolution. A scope or a loupe can only show a given amount of detail, depending on the quality of the lenses (and there's even a physical barrier defined by the wavelength of the visual light spectrum). More magnification doesn't automatically mean more detail. It often offers only the same detail bigger. That's why you might be able to get more detail out of a quality 10X loupe than out of an inexpensive 200X USB-scope.

How scratchy your edge looks depend on the hone you used. But the visual appearance of the scratch pattern tells not the whole story. Some hones leave an obvious scratch pattern and still produce superb shaving results. Coticules are notorious for this. I recently read Josh Earl's thread http://straightrazorpalace.com/hone-...-naturals.html where he's surprised how scratched the edges are from his highly appraised Japanese natural hone.

If it shaves well, I wouldn't care how it looks.

Bart.

Good point. The shave is the ultimate test.Well, I am going to hit the strop and see what happens. If that doesn't work it will be time to do a pyramid.

If you decide to do the pyramid use the conservative one first, then strop and test shave. The aggressive pyramid is the last choice.

Thanks, I did the conservative and will see how it shaves tonight.I hope I got it right.

HEY! It worked. I got a fairly decent shave last night. I think I need to tweak it a little on my coticule and I should be all set.:DI am still a newbie so now my technique will need some honing too but pretty nice.

Thanks guys

Congratulations!:) Your persistence & patience has paid off!

Now try the coticule with water only, no slurry, then strop and test shave.
Let us know how many laps you used on the coticule and the shaving results. I would use 50 + light roundtrip laps. YMMV on that point.

Thanks. I will try 50 light laps and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Congratulations!:) Your persistence & patience has paid off!

Now try the coticule with water only, no slurry, then strop and test shave.
Let us know how many laps you used on the coticule and the shaving results. I would use 50 + light roundtrip laps. YMMV on that point.

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What about using a coticule dry? Is that even finer than just wet (I assume with slurry is more abrasive than just wet, but where does no slurry and not even wet fit in?) I just received my coticule last night and am experimenting.

I think it will give you a different grit but am not sure exactly what the grit will equate to yet.

People use water on most natural stones or a light oil/kerosene where appropriate to help remove the buildup of "swarf". Swarf is the metal filings that result from honing and other junk stuff. If you like to hone on metal filings then go ahead and hone dry.:)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

People use water on most natural stones or a light oil/kerosene where appropriate to help remove the buildup of "swarf". Swarf is the metal filings that result from honing and other junk stuff. If you like to hone on metal filings then go ahead and hone dry.:)

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OK, I get it now.

swarf = bad
slurry = good

It probably follows that it's ok to hone while slurring your words, but bad if you have just barfed on the hone. :D

YUCK!!!:eek:

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

OK, I get it now.

swarf = bad
slurry = good

It probably follows that it's ok to hone while slurring your words, but bad if you have just barfed on the hone. :D

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Well, last nights shave was not so good. I could not shave the whiskers off of my chin for some reason. My cheeks went great but my chin area did not shave. I think I am going backwards.I had to use my feather to clean up what my dovo could not get. I did 50 passes on my coticule with 35 on the strop. I suppose another 20 on the coticule couldn't hurt. I hope. Now,I have a nice irritated chin.:(

Good morning,:)

If the razor shaved your cheeks great then it should also shave your chin....if you are paying attention to the angle of the razor while shaving the chin.

20 more laps on the coticule won't hurt but it sounds like shaving technique now. Shaving the chin is a takes a while to learn. Keep at it.

That sounds encouraging. My toughest area is my chin. My feather seems to glide right through it though. Feathers are very sharp though and a different beast.

The first few posts in this thread give you an idea of wet vs. dry coticule for honing. Using lather should even be better, but I never did the experiment myself.

Using a coticule with slurry (instead of only water or lather) speeds up the honing process,
BUT it also DULLS the tip of the bevel. Not sure why that happens, but everyone that build some experience with a coticule will agree with me on this.

My guess is that the garnets (the cutting particles of a coticule) abrade the tip of the cutting bevel to a certain level, where it is strong (but obtuse) enough to withstand the collision with those garnets. After all, they are about 15 micron in diameter, while the tip of a shaveready edge is less then 0,5 micron.

Using the coticule as a polisher with only water, does not produce this effect, and leaves a great edge, as long as you reach enough sharpness at your lower grit hone.

Bart.

What do you guys mean by lather?

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Originally Posted by zenshaver

What do you guys mean by lather?

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The same whipped up soap you use for shaving.
Tried it once, but didn't found any difference with my normal routine.
I always add a drop of everyday dishwashing soap to the water I use to moisten my hones. Plain water tries to escape from my DMT-E, and I don't bother with changing the contents of my spray bottle when I jump to the coticule.

No kidding. Thats an interesting idea.I am going to have to try that.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

If you like to hone on metal filings then go ahead and hone dry.:)

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My sentiments exactly. Personally I do not like honing dry on the coticule. The sound, etc to me is almost like fingernails on a chalkboard. And, even though the surfaces of my coticules are lapped and clean when dry, I swear during dry honing I can hear swarf or maybe released garnets crunching under the blade. Yuck. Water all the way for me on my coticules all the time when I polish.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Chrisl

My sentiments exactly. Personally I do not like honing dry on the coticule. The sound, etc to me is almost like fingernails on a chalkboard. And, even though the surfaces of my coticules are lapped and clean when dry, I swear during dry honing I can hear swarf or maybe released garnets crunching under the blade. Yuck. Water all the way for me on my coticules all the time when I polish.

Chris L

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I don't like it either, but it does depend on the coticule a bit. On a soft stone I would surely consider it a no go. But some harder coticules allow dry honing wtihout much risk to ruin the edge. But even then, I don't really see the point.

Bart.