Hey, Everybody.
I just ordered a Double Arrow and was wondering what some of your experiences have been in getting them shave ready. What did it take for you?
-Andrew
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Hey, Everybody.
I just ordered a Double Arrow and was wondering what some of your experiences have been in getting them shave ready. What did it take for you?
-Andrew
Create a bevel with a DMT-E (1200 mesh)
Follow with a Yellow Coticule, with slurry first then only water.
Finally 1 micron 3M film
Great shavers for little money
good luck. I have tried everything with mine and no luck. passes all the tests just fine, and then when I put it on my face, it's like shaving with a rusty scythe.
mine was the opposite, didnt really pass the tests so well (i dont even bother anymore) but it shaved great in fact im gonna use it right now! thanks for reminding me.
EDIT: Toms of Maine mint and Mamma bears awakenings...My first super lather...cold and wonderful...good shave
I have only honed and shaved with two of them so far. They hone up quicker than most razors. Both of mine had bad factory bevels so I went with 1000 grit sandpaper until a new bevel is formed. Then on to the 4K-8K-etc. The shave was not the best. It was sharp enough but the edge felt kinda coarse compared to most of my vintage razors. An entry level Dovo feels better on my skin. BTW, I honed and shave tested both razors two times. YMMV.
Hope this helps,:)
I have 8 of them. First I honed up 3 of them, starting on a DMT 600, to build a proper bevel and then DMT1200, and a coticule. They all came with a smiling curved edge from the factory, which makes honing them a bit of an advanced job. Furthermore, the grind is not all that even. Looking at the spine, I found different thickness along the spines of the razors, and much variance in the way that presented itself between the 8 I bought.
In the end those 3 I honed shaved well enough, but they benefited much from chromium oxide, something I interpreted as evidence that they were not honed with consistency along the entire length of the edge. The HHT seemed to reveal that as well. In an almost erratic way the HHT passed very well on some parts of the blade and less well on other parts. Not just the usual lack of keenness on toe and heel, I sometimes have on smiling blades.
I pondered over it for a while, and decided to remove the smiling curves. Took me about 6 hours of work on all 8, starting with "sawhoning" on a DMT325 till the edges were straight. I also worked on the spines to even out the tickness issues. After that I reconstructed bevels from the 325 grit , over the 600, up tp the 1200. I didn't use tape at the spine, to allow the blade to even out, so that by the time I was finished, my 8 razors lay perfectly flat on the hone, and hone up very easily and straightforward. They shave definitely better and smoother now.
I still like a "smiling edge" on a razor, but I think you need a perfectly ground razor for it, or even better, one with a smiling (but even in thickness) spine.
Bart.
Bart...
I also found that on the 10 that I purchased the thickness of the spine was uneven on some and all had a "smile" shaped edge plus a host of other grinding and finishing flaws. Yes this does make for a bit of a honing challenge!:) But by using the rolling X pattern stroke and/or a narrow hone along with a slow honing stroke it can be done. It is not necessary to even out the spine or straighten the edge although that make it a lot easier to hone. I do admire your willingness to perform a lot of work that makes the razor better for the long term!:tuI purchased mine so that guys in my area would have an inexpensive "beginners" razor. Two newbs have them so far. Now I don't have to sell my vintage razors!:)
Thanks a lot, guys. This is great info. I'm looking forward to the honing challenge. Now I've got a lot of ideas to get me started.:tu
I'm in total agreement with that, Randy. Normally, I wouldn't have gone through all the efforts for "straightening" them out. But I plan on using them for my upcoming series of hone experiments (see my thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-pictures.html ) The razors shaved more than decent before I straightened them, but they showed more variance between them. After my treatment, they all shave and feel the same, if honed with the same set of hones, and they are much less prone to glitches in my honing. Which makes them more suitable for my experiments.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
The fact that they also seem to shave just a tad better, made my experiences worth mentioning in this thread
Best regards,
Bart.
I don't mean to resurrect this thread from the dead, but I was about to start a new one with the same topic and searched and found this one first.
I'm having a hell of a time honing the DA I bought. I cannot get the bevel set to my liking for the life of me. I'm no where near a honemeister, but I've set the bevel and sharpened a dozen or so vintage ebay razors that I've found shave me very well, and I didn't have near as much trouble with any of them as I am having with this DA. And I don't see the reason for it?
Coming off of the 1200 grit DMT, I always get both the TNT and TPT to pass, and the razors are sharp already coming off the 1200. Not shaving sharp, but just about the sharpest things I've ever felt before this hobby. Definitely "don't run your finger along the blade with ANY pressure, for any distance" sharp.
Not so with the DA. No matter how many passes I do, I can't seem to get it to pass the TPT. It does pass the TNT, but not the TPT. The edge always feels a little dull and coarse. I actually got it very close once, to the point that I moved on to the 4k/8k, and I spent way more time on those than any other razor and just couldn't get this thing popping arm hairs like all the other razors I've tried. I ended up getting frustrated and breadknifing the thing on the 325 grit DMT and then trying to set the bevel again. After about 100 passes on the 325, including some heavy pressure back-and-forth and circular passes and then another 150 passes at least on the 1200 I couldn't even get the razor to pass the TNT along the full length, let alone back to where it was when I moved to the 4k the first time. After this hour or so, I ended up putting it away for the night. This thing has about 1/16" of hone wear already just from me trying to get it right. What a PITA.
I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. It passes the magic marker test on the length of the blade no problem, and under magnification, again not that I really know what I'm looking for, it looks like a single smooth bevel and no microchipping or anything on the edge. It looks like what I would expect? (It looked OK/the same under 60x earlier when I moved it to the 4k/8k). Yet it won't pass the TNT or TPT at this point, and even if I do another 200 passes to get it back to passing both, it just doesn't seem to want to get all that sharp once I move to the 4k/8k. Is it just elusive to the traditional sharpness tests (popping arm hairs) and I should guess and shave? Is it super hard and requires more passes than anything else I've done? I'm really not sure? Anyone else have this experience? FWIW this is a DA I bought about a month ago from stamps222.
if you are looking for the sharpness similar to other blades DA will not get there.It will hone ease and as above mentioned some could have uneven back problem.i have personally honed 2 for srp members and shave was ok on both but not great.I did mention to both members about it.You may making mistake and wanted get the edge similar you used to getting from old blades.it will not happen.I think this is the reason .you sharpen the blade on it is maximum potential and it doesn't act how it should be then you still continue hone ended up overhoning.This is 1 possibilitiy.
Second one are you taping back of the blade?If not you better do so,
hope this helps
Thanks for the tips. I didn't realize it might not get as sharp as older (better?) blades. I didn't tape the spine because it was cheap and at first I didn't think I would introduce much if any hone wear since I thought it would come right up like the others I've honed. By the time I realized how much work it was going to be and the hone wear was starting to show, I decided I didn't care since it was so cheap and just kept at it without the tape. If I go at it again, I'm considering taping it and starting at resetting the bevel yet again (it's not set right now anyway, IMO).Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
What's funny and ironic is that I actually bought this razor specifically because I thought it would be really easy to hone since it was new, no hone wear, etc. A good "starter" razor to learn to hone on. Boy was I wrong, lol. NOT a good razor to learn to hone on at all, at least not this one.
Strange. I recently got a DA and had no problems honing it. I'm still pretty new to honing. I'veQuote:
Originally Posted by pjrage
only been shaving with a straight since December. I used a Norton 4k/8k and a Chinese 12k. It honed
up pretty quick. Maybe I got lucky and got one that wasn't far off.
It seems as sharp as my other blades. My first razor was a DA from Ken at RupRazor which he honed up.
I used it this morning and got a BBS shave from it. So you should be able to get it plenty sharp.
update:
it IS possible to get a DA sharp enough to comfortably shave with. you have to double bevel it. the metal is not of sufficiently robust temper to hold up otherwise. 2-3 layers of 3mil tape should do it. mine are great now.
however, the shoulder is still a problem. i ground one of 'em off the other day and it was much easier to hone.
oh man... you guys have me freaked out now! bought one form stamps222 last night.
Not another carp razor!
Yeah, the shoulder was a ridiculous PITA for me. I ended up grinding alot of it down the hard way.. using the DMT 1200 mostly, and then finished with the DMT 325 when I got it. I'll try a double bevel and see where I end up. Thanks for the tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
I own 8 DA's bought from Stamps222. I like them. I have used them for a number of honing experiments, and they seem to respond well to a wide variety of hones and honing methods. I agree with Sham (hi_bud_gl) that also the capability of the razor is one of the contributing factors to the quality of the edge that can be put on it. But what you describe is not normal. DA's normally hold a very decent shave. If you can't succeed in honing it, there's something seriously wrong.
Coming of a DMT1200 a razor should shave. Even beard hairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by pjrage
Even after the DMT325, a razor shaves. I haven't tried beard hairs after the 325, but it definitely shaves arm hairs.
This is not normal. It would be best to check under magnification, to find out if there's nothing wrong with structural intergity of the steel. All DA's I've seen so far had decent steel, but I don't think the manufacturer does much quality control for the price they're sold. Just to say a flawed blade is a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by pjrage
I have removed the bevel of all 8 DA's and recut a straight bevel on them, with the use of a DMT 325. On 2 of those, I went to the DMT 600 a little bit too early, and it took me a very long time on the 600 to make up for that. I think on the 1200 it would have taken me even longer. Trying to do neglected work on a hone that's 2 steps too fine, can literally take many hours of honing without success.Quote:
Originally Posted by pjrage
DMT-EE: 3 micron - speed ratio: 1
DMT-E: 9 micron - speed ratio: 27 (in one [9 micron]³ fit 3X3X3=27 [3 micron]³)
DMT-F: 25 micron - speed ratio: 512 (in one [24 micron]³ fit 8X8X8=512 [3 micron]³)
DMT-C: 45 micron - speed ratio: 3375 (in one [45 micron]³ fit 15X15X15=3375 [3 micron]³)
This overly simplified math shows that a job takes 125 times longer on a DMT-E than on a DMT-C. Stopping one minute to early on the DMT-C takes you over 2 hours on the DMT-E.
Here's a picture of a W&B I recreated a bevel on last Sunday. Edge was breadknifed, picture shot while honing on the DMT 325.Quote:
Originally Posted by pjrage
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...-w-b2-side.jpg
Looks good, doesn't it?
Here's a second picture, aimed directly at the bevel tip (the narrow strip in the middle).
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...42-w-b2tip.jpg
Clearly still not there. This Wade&Butcher is a wedge. I took me more than 2 additional hours and pressure to complete the bevel on my DMT 325.
I recommend reading GLen's wiki article about bevel rebuilding.
One way to hone an eBay or damaged blade - Straight Razor Place Wiki
Hope this helps,
Bart.
i got a double arrow from stamps, had no problem honing it, didn't take much at all, i have a 4/8k and CrO pasted strop.
DAs are fully capable of getting as great an edge as any other razor out there. It is rather surprising. It may not be as remarkably smooth shaving as some high-zoot Wunderstahl razor that cost $250, and the guys who own $250 Wundersteel razors may not want to admit it, but if you could somehow do a blind shave test, I doubt many could pick the DA out of a lineup in comparrison with 3-4 other full hollow razors out there.
Here's an edge on one of my DAs, at 200x:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachm...1&d=1234287160
That's damn sharp and smooth. No taping, no fancy honing required.
Here's a Sheffield wedge edge 200x:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...-edge-200x.jpg
One thing you have to be aware of with the DAs is that they are big 7/8 or so full hollow blades, so if you put too much pressure on them when you're honing them, the blade will flex and do wierd things to what you are hoping to accomplish with setting a bevel. They are surprisingly finely ground blades--they flex quite a bit.
Step #1 when setting a bevel with a DA--don't be afraid! It's a $10 razor, so have at it! That troublesome shoulder everyone talks about? Sure it's there---you can either blast through it with your 1200 DMT, or avoid it altogether by honing with a heel leading stroke at 45 degrees.
Once the bevel is set they progress quite nicely. The DAs just hone up with no surprises. That's been my experience anyhow.
I can tell you they hone up more easily than a Friodur does. The Frios can tend to microchip, etc. Here's my latest Frio edge, after wrangling it with all sorts of pleadings. The Frio cost 10x as much as the DA, and was about that much more difficult to hone as well!
But how well do they keep their edges? Just wondering.
I have a Dovo as well, the DA is as good in some respects, for the money it is a great buy, i don't think you can do better.
I have found no problems in that department.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leighton
I repeat: they have good steel and good temper. The grind is ok. Some have minimal unevenness, but nothing so severe that it conflicts with sharpening. None of my 8 shows any warp.
They lack in the finish department.
The blades are finished very sparingly: the tip of the spine has a hard edge, that can leave a scratch at the strop. The tang has hard edges too. Both issues are easily resolved with a small piece of 600 or finer sandpaper.
They are not polished, the finish is at the same level as what you get with the finest "scotch brite" rotating sanding wheels. (I believe it's called a satin finish).
While honing, the shoulder of the blade hits the side of the hone at a point where the heel is not entirely resting on the hone. Starting the stroke from a slight diagonal position, resolves this issue.
Or you can do some careful reshaping work, grinding a bigger radius onto the heel.
The scales are total crap. They are flimsy. They are sloppy attached and touch the blade while closing.
It's the perfect blade for those who want to do some razor customization, like making new scales and final finishing the blade, optionally playing with its form a little.
Bart.
Thanks Bart. Would you recommend sanding the entire blade and hitting if with a polishing compound once i get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Think this is going to be my first attempt to make scales also. Going to use wood, even though it will induce a gag reflex in BeBerlin.
No need for any sanding. Hit it up with some polish if you like. But to sand out the satin grind marks would take much more effort than it is worth. Removing stock grind marks from a razor is just about as difficult as removing pitting from a vintage blade. Removing pittuing is a neccesity, removing grinding finish is not (it would be cool though!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfast
The advantage of the the initial DA-finish is, that it's easy to make alterations to the blade with a coarse grinding stone (be careful with the temper!:eek:!) and resurface with abrasive fiber wheels (I don't know what you actually call them in English, but I'm talking about those wheels that are made from a kind of abrasive mesh, the coarser ones mixed with flaps, the finer ones without flaps. 3M sells them under the Scotch Brite brand.) The finest one of those wheels will give a finish that blends completely with the original finish of a DA, so you'll only need to do the part you altered.
The "grittiness" of that finish is about 240. If you want a mirror polish, you need to sand progressively to 600 grit, leaving no trace of previous marks behind, and then you can take it to the buffing wheels. I pre-polish on sisal wheels with a brown Tripoli paste, polish on cotton wheels with a white paste for SS, and go for mirror with a "Blue rouge" on felt. The hard part is to cross the gap between the 240 wheels and the desired 600 grit. I do that by hand, in absence of a good alternative. I read it can also be done with coarse greaseless compounds on a sisal wheel, but I haven't tried that yet.
I fear I might completely loose the clean lines of a razor's design and be left with the very rounded effect you see on some restores, and which I personally am not fond of.
Bart.
I think the contrast between the "satin" finish and the "polished " honed bits looks nice.
Just to follow up, I got the DA back out last night, threw two layers of tape on it, which probably brought it back to where it was before all the hone wear, maybe a little more, and honed her up. It went surprisingly smoothly. I started on the DMT 325 then moved to the DMT 1200 to finish setting the bevel, then the norton 4k/8k, and finished on the chinese 12k. Shaved with it this morning, and the shave was good. I have no idea why I had so much trouble before, or why it went so easy this time :shrug:
It didn't pass the "along the way" tests I've been using for other razors as well, but under the scope it looked great so I just kept progressing. In the end it came out great. Today's shave with it was really pretty darn nice :)
:tuGreat!
I'm glad you got it together after all.
I think you lost confidence in the razor when you were almost there.
I guess we all visit that place every once in a while. Usually at that price level, things are too good to be true. The DA is a pleasant exception to that rule.
Well done,
Bart.
not especially well. mine require more frequent maintenance than any of my antique razors, and way WAY more than a stainless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leighton
I just recieved mine to day and it has the same problems with the shoulder and the junk scales. Going to rescale it before i worry about honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
As most of you can tell from the start of this thread until now there are tons of inconsistencies with DA's....
Bart and I were just PM'n about some DA's yesterday, TY Bart...
First the shoulder issue used to show up in about 30% of these, now I don't even bother trying with out a correction, Bart has a great pic of a heel cutback on here, I used that with my normal shoulder reduction yesterday, and that eliminates all the problems....
The spine is uneven and sharp in spots, 600 grit sandpaper eliminates that problem in 5 minutes
Some of the guys here in the Bread-knifing thread recommended that when unsure of the edge to do 2-3 light bread-knifing strokes to bring the blade to an un-sharp condition before starting the bevel set.. This is a great idea for these razors in particular...
These are shavers nothing more, nothing less, if that is all you are looking for then at this price point they can't be beat...
Take what I say with a grain of salt though, I don't think all that much of Wapi's either....
It seems that particular design flaw has a long historyQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...stenholm_4.jpg
It seems that particular design flaw has a long historyQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...stenholm_4.jpg