if you had to keep it down to... 3...

Hi there!

I am looking to make an entry into the basic and perhaps a bit more advanced honing fields and I was wondering... maybe I should have undergone a thourough research, but... I'll ask anyway.

Like most of us, I have a hard time controling my fascination for this whole stright razor thing and keeping in mind that I don't have too much to spend on stuff... but we all have in the back of our heads that our purchases are investments, I mean, the stuff we buy, unless we ruin them or sell them, will have a long time to be used. And that means razors, strops and, of course, hones.

So here it goes: If you had to choose a basic set of hones for maintenance honing and some ocasional honing that is beyond maintaining a keen edge on the razor, what would you buy? I was thinking a purchase within a reasonable budged (Note: reasonable = wife not cutting of the pea**** afterwards... :D)... that meaning a set of maybe 3 hones. Or even one for that matter!
I've been thinking of purchasing a belgian coticule... but the one I saw is around 8K grit. Maybe I need something with a finer grit... and something with a coarser grit... What would you suggest?

Thanks! But beware: budget - small kit! ;) something to put an end to HAD before it starts... :rolleyes:

4/8K Norton

12K Chinese

.5/.25 pastes on balsa wood


= $110.00

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

4/8K Norton

12K Chinese

.5/.25 pastes on balsa wood


= $110.00

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Boy oh boy! You sure are fast! thanks! mind if I ask why?

Thanks!

I'm fast because I'm a Mod, I have to watch you guys like a hawk! :)

4K will take care of most edges, with a little patience

8K will get you a good edge

12K Chinese is cheap and puts a nice butter edge on a razor

.5 or .25 paste can take your edges into really sharp smooth polished edges and will let you play with pastes, which everybody wants to do at some point.

Putting the paste in balsa wood is cheaper than a strop and sits deeper into the wood, keeping the edge smoother.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I'm fast because I'm a Mod, I have to watch you guys like a hawk! :)

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Great job, Mister Moderator! And little old me thinking that you were very very keen on answering my questions... ;) I'm being baby-sitted! :D Or in a more Orwellian discourse: "AFDavis11 is watching you..." :p

Thanks for the explanation!

You'll get other opinions too. I bought a 1K Norton and use it on occasion. Those are nice too.


I'm sure someone will come along soon and talk about other hones.

I basically agree with Alan, here, his suggestions sound good, although my own favorite kit is a little different. I have a small yellow coticule and a smaller still piece to raise a slurry, this size stone is not particularly expensive compared to the larger ones- and I have an old barber hone for the finer work. I really believe grit sizes with regard to natural stones such as the coticule are subjective at best and cannot be compared directly to synthetic stones in which grit of a certain size is added to a binding agent...
Still both of my favorite hones can be stacked up and fit into a space in my shave kit for the road smaller than some deodorants are....and do not require soaking, like the Norton does.
The Norton is, however, obscenely easy to use.

John P.

1k Naniwa Lobster. Cheap, yet very effective
4k King - cheap, yet providing a great edge
Fine Thuringian or Escher - not cheap, but it puts a nice finish to all kinds of steel, from stainless to carbon and other alloys in between

The chromium oxide strop doesn't count, right? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

4/8K Norton

12K Chinese

.5/.25 pastes on balsa wood


= $110.00

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I totally agree. Great setup for a minimal price. Those hones will last a guy a lifetime and then some.:tu

Heres a question in regards to the Norton and the Chinese 12K.

I just obtained a 4/8K Norton and a few razors to learn on, (the 12K will come later). Do I need to build a slurry on the Norton to get it working, or is it just soak and go to work? And if i do need to make the slurry, can it be done with a fine grit sand paper?

I am trying to keep cost down at this point. My next purchase just might find me shaving in the mirror of someones vehicle in the parking lot of walmart....if you know where im coming from. :w

Slurry is for Belgiums, not Mr. Norton.

Yea for the money Alan's suggestions are great. I would just replace the .25 paste with CrO. If you have more money to burn I would get a coticule instead of the chinese though.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yea for the money Alan's suggestions are great. I would just replace the .25 paste with CrO. If you have more money to burn I would get a coticule instead of the chinese though.

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Ah, the coticule... but there are 2 types, right? Blue and yellow... what's de difference? :shrug:

Ok... I see the idea.
This what I came up in my investigation - no prices nor budget so far... this just a prospect, ok?

1) For basic honing - Norton 4K/8K combo
2) For finishing a blade and touching up - something in the grit area of 12K
3) Some pastes for the basic touch up to keep the edge in tip top shape
4) For harder work like removing a chip and resto work - something around 1K

But there's the lapping issue? Don't I need something to lap the stones?

I'm very confused, guys... er... help?! :p

For lapping a hone, you have various options. Essentially the goal is to ensure the hone is perfectly flat.
To this end, there are commercially available lapping plates, such as the ones by Norton or the much more expensive Shapton. Then there is the option of using a fine grit diamond bench hone (also super flat) from DMT as a lapping surface, or even lapping one hone against another of the same type. The idea is to draw a grid on the hone with pencil, rub it on the lapping surface, be it a plate, a hone, or a piece of glass and a piece of wet-dry sandpaper(also a popular method) until the pencil lines disappear evenly. Keep redrawing the lines until they all disappear at once, then you are done. Prior to this, one portion or other of the grid will disappear first, indicating unevenness.
Clear as mud, I'm sure, but hope this helps.


John P.

From everything I have read, the coticule is an 8K, not a 12K. If this is the case, why the coticule in place of the 12K chinese? Isnt the 8K Norton enough?

Sorry fpessanha, not trying to => :HJ, im just in the same boat as you at the moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yea for the money Alan's suggestions are great. I would just replace the .25 paste with CrO. If you have more money to burn I would get a coticule instead of the chinese though.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Basher052

From everything I have read, the coticule is an 8K, not a 12K. If this is the case, why the coticule in place of the 12K chinese? Isnt the 8K Norton enough?

Sorry fpessanha, not trying to => :HJ, im just in the same boat as you at the moment.

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No problem... if this thread is helpful for me, there's no reason why it shouldn't be for you as well! Ask away! Chances are that you will ask something that I meant asking and forgot! ;)

The coticules, being natural stones, are not quite the same as say, a Norton, and perform differently. Often a coticule produces an edge much finer than that possible on a Norton, possibly due to the shape of the particles, not how many of them there are...
Hope this helps.


John P.

edit: thought I would add, there is absolutely nothing wrong with shaving off the 8k of a Norton. It is something I and many others have done and often still do. This sight and this hobby however entice one to buy more toys and newer interesting hones. Doesn't mean they are necessary at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnP

The coticules, being natural stones, are not quite the same as say, a Norton, and perform differently. Often a coticule produces an edge much finer than that possible on a Norton, possibly due to the shape of the particles, not how many of them there are...
Hope this helps.


John P.

edit: thought I would add, there is absolutely nothing wrong with shaving off the 8k of a Norton. It is something I and many others have done and often still do. This sight and this hobby however entice one to buy more toys and newer interesting hones. Doesn't mean they are necessary at all.

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For the record, this kind of talk could get one blugened with his paddle strop should the wife ever come to this conclusion. :gth

Thanks for the reply. I was just thinking today about how far this hobby has come since the days of Marshall Dillon. Im sure the stones of yesteryear are nothing like we have today.

Well...
They did have Belgian hones, Eschers, etc etc back then....
So I'm sure they got their stuff sharp also....

John P.

and what was I thinking. Of course we NEED all these different hones, etc etc anything less would be uncivilized, like making us shave with a shard of glass, no doubt ! ;)

1200 DMT- bevel work
B.Blue - to bridge the gap between the dmt and coticule. also can do some bevel work with large amount of slurry
yellow - to finish

To add, you can prob get a double sided Belgian hone from Howard Schecter.

Yes, but that is not really on a budget.
55$ for the DMT.
30$ for the blue
50$ for the yellow

Add shipping (considering that big chunk of nickel and steel) and you're up to 175$ at least.

Thanks for all the feedback on the subject. I see all of you more experienced guys have your ideas finely tuned. I guess it all boils down to budget. Because what I proposed was a set of 3 stones, basicaly a coarse one, a medium one and a fine one. Of course pastes are a good solution for the final polish...
But what if you had to keep it down to a sort of all-purpose stone (this being a combo or not...)? What would you choose?

I read that coticules might be a good all-purpose stone (patience is required, of course...)... By the way, this is the hone I've been considering: NEW! Belgian razor hones
Tell me what you think. Is this a good hone for what I propose? Is it blue or yellow? Finer kind or coarser kind?

Thanks for the replies!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fpessanha

But what if you had to keep it down to a sort of all-purpose stone (this being a combo or not...)? What would you choose?

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The only hone that I absolutely could not do without is my barber hone. If you only buy new razors, or razors professionally sharpened by someone else, you could shave happily for a lifetime with just a barber hone. After that, it depends on what else you want to do. I also have a Norton 4K/8K, which is good for sharpening up eBay razors before I finish them on the barber hone. I also use a pasted strop for the final touch. I don't have any experience with the others, coticules, Japanese stones, etc. but I have no interest at present because I'm very satisfied with the shaves I'm getting and have other things that I want to spend my money on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fpessanha

Thanks for all the feedback on the subject. I see all of you more experienced guys have your ideas finely tuned. I guess it all boils down to budget. Because what I proposed was a set of 3 stones, basicaly a coarse one, a medium one and a fine one. Of course pastes are a good solution for the final polish...
But what if you had to keep it down to a sort of all-purpose stone (this being a combo or not...)? What would you choose?

I read that coticules might be a good all-purpose stone (patience is required, of course...)... By the way, this is the hone I've been considering: NEW! Belgian razor hones
Tell me what you think. Is this a good hone for what I propose? Is it blue or yellow? Finer kind or coarser kind?

Thanks for the replies!

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If your going to work on vintage razors than the best all purpose hone is the Norton 4/8. The blue and yellow Belgian are not suited to dealing with old oxidised edges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by poona

1200 DMT- bevel work
B.Blue - to bridge the gap between the dmt and coticule. also can do some bevel work with large amount of slurry
yellow - to finish

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I have a DMT 1200 and it works GREAT for setting a bevel, and I think you could go to a 8000 grit (whatever that may be) from there without too much stress.

I vote for a coticule to finish, if you are looking for a more bang for your buck stone. Whip up a slurry until the DMT marks are gone, and finish with no slurry for a fine edge!

I have a DMT 1200 6"X2". Costs 18$ + shipping
I have many coticules, but one would suffice.:thinking: A 6"X2" costs 78$ + shipping

I have coarser DMT's , a couple of Belgian Blue Whetstones, but for honing razors and mild restoration, I can get by with the two above.

On the rare occasion the coticule needs flattening, the DMT can get the job done. The DMT doesn't need lapping. Neither of them needs to be soaked in water prior to honing (just sprinkle on some water and you're good to go) They don't glaze. All things I like.

You would get a lifetime of very smooth edges for a good price.
I don't have a Norton and I never used one, so I can't compare.

Bart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

I have a DMT 1200 6"X2". Costs 18$ + shipping
I have many coticules, but one would suffice.:thinking: A 6"X2" costs 78$ + shipping

I have coarser DMT's , a couple of Belgian Blue Whetstones, but for honing razors and mild restoration, I can get by with the two above.

On the rare occasion the coticule needs flattening, the DMT can get the job done. The DMT doesn't need lapping. Neither of them needs to be soaked in water prior to honing (just sprinkle on some water and you're good to go) They don't glaze. All things I like.

You would get a lifetime of very smooth edges for a good price.
I don't have a Norton and I never used one, so I can't compare.

Bart.

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That's definately great advice and another great option; I have had the same great experiences with these two stones and would not hesitate to make this same recommendation if someone did not want to go with a Norton (which is also a great stone).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

I have a DMT 1200 6"X2". Costs 18$ + shipping
I have many coticules, but one would suffice.:thinking: A 6"X2" costs 78$ + shipping

I have coarser DMT's , a couple of Belgian Blue Whetstones, but for honing razors and mild restoration, I can get by with the two above.

On the rare occasion the coticule needs flattening, the DMT can get the job done. The DMT doesn't need lapping. Neither of them needs to be soaked in water prior to honing (just sprinkle on some water and you're good to go) They don't glaze. All things I like.

You would get a lifetime of very smooth edges for a good price.
I don't have a Norton and I never used one, so I can't compare.

Bart.

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Bart, where did you find the DMT for $18

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Basher052

Bart, where did you find the DMT for $18

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I got mine here:
DMT Dia-Sharp Hone - 6"

His price went up, since the last time I checked, it's 20$ now.

Here's another resource, still at 18$, but I never bought from them:
DMT Dia-Sharp 6x2x1/4 in. Diamond Plates

Bart.

Thanks Bart. The 1200 looks like what I might need to keep the Norton in shape. :tu

I've been listening very carfully to what you've all been saying and doing my investigation for the better prices.
I noticed tha none of you mentioned arkansas stones... why is that? I'm just trying to understand what could be a good starter choice.

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fpessanha

I've been listening very carfully to what you've all been saying and doing my investigation for the better prices.
I noticed tha none of you mentioned arkansas stones... why is that? I'm just trying to understand what could be a good starter choice.

Thanks!

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Hey fpessanha, I have a hard black Arkansas, it's about 8k grit wise. I have tried to use it about 7-8 times, and it positively wrecks my various razors edges.

I tried hard steel, soft steel, ready to shave razors, razors off the DMT 1200, razors off the DMT 8K... and it sucked on them all!!

Lots of microchipping on the hard steel, crappy dull edge off the softer steels. Feh.

Not only does it wreck the edge, it cuts super slow....so it pretty much sucks all the way around. I even tried it on a few fillet knives, hunting knives, and a lawnmower blade. Blargh, what a waste of time.

I am keeping it as a "nothing else is working, so I will try this" hone, just in case, but...

I use one as a door jam in the summer. ;)

Difficult question.
With the experience that I have so far :hmmm:
The DMT8C is a lapping plate so that doesn't count as a hone, surely? :rolleyes:

Norton 1000/4000
Narutaki
Nakayama

I'd leave the Norton off if the DMT was counted as 1, but that'd mean I wouldn't be doing any real edge restoration.
Frankly, 3 hones is not enough for me, considering the different honing scenarios I find myself in.
The 4000/8000 is a valuable asset as well, and the 8x3 yellow coticule comes in handy from time to time.

EDIT: I have more of course, but these 5 (well, 6) are the essential ones. :w
EDIT2: I once considered going the paste route, but now that I have my nakayama, I won't bother. Of course, pastes are 2 orders of magnitude cheaper, but using pastes feels like cheating to me :D