issues honing Fillarmonica - baby smooth, no tugging, but not close

I've gotten a great edge using a new coticule on a dovo and basic le grelot.

I also have a fillarmonica 13 with a big smile that was originally honed by lynn abrams, then I used it 12 times (with great shaves) at which point it got dull and tugged. I coticuled it and its totally smooth but isn't cutting very close. I get ok shaves with four passes and face feels great, but its not cutting close.

Normally if my blade isn't sharp it doesn't cut well at all and tugs and hurts. This is smooth as could be and cuts ok eventually but something clearly isn't right because I usually only need two passes and get closer than I'm getting in four passes with this filly. Its known to be a cranky razoe to hone.

Anyone have any ideas what I might be doing wrong to get baby smooth, no tugging, but not close shaves from a fillarmonica with big smile?

Do you think the bevel isn't right or do I jiust need to keep working on my coticule technique since maybe the steel is jiust extra hard or something. On advice I'm going to get a Radio Shack magnifier and sharpie, but I'm curious if people have any reactions to what I'm describing.

Isn't your razor overhoned? How many passes did you do on the coticule?

probably too many passes. not sure :) Maybe 100 passes (I don't really count). I'm confused because I read sometimes it's almost impossible to overhone, and watch the great LX video on a coticule where he uses tons of passes, but then others are very conservative on how many passes you should make. Also my other razors are doing great and I did as many passes on them.

I also thought overhoned razors tended to bite (via the fin or burr or whatever it's called) and then get dull real quick and start tugging [which used to be my issue wiht pasted strops]. This keeps it's "edge" fine and doesn't bite at all and doesn't collapse. So does that mean it's not overhoned, or is that irrelevant?

And if I am overhoning on this one, should I back hone and try again?

The first razor I ever honed was a Filly. It was also nearly the last razor I tried to hone. What I have learned since is that they are very hard and take a good bit of work to get dialed in. FWIIW, here is my general honing proceedure:

1. Set bevel. Usually, I start with a Belgian Blue, though I have gone down to 800 grit DMT on razors which are in bad shape. I consider the bevel set when I feel a consistent, smooth drag durning the TNT.
2. Refine Edge. Depending on the progression I am using and how low I went to set the bevel this typically consists of 1-3 stones. The goal here is to polish the edge up to ~10000 grit.
3. Finish the Edge. Once upon a time, I used a pasted paddle strop. I have since moved onto a wonderful Japanese hone. I will not extoll its attributes here since I have done so at length elsewhere on the forum.

In learning to hone, I found that, assuming you have a good, even bevel, the absolutely most critical piece of knowledge to be when to move onto the next hone. I look for one behavior of the blade on the hone: once it begins to undercut the meniscus - the water slides up the blade, towards the spine instead of running in front of it - it is usually 40 laps from being ready for the next hone. If it slides up only part of the blade, and runs forward on others, keep going. It has to slide up the length of the edge. Now it may take you 100 laps to get to the point where the it undercuts the meniscus, but once it does you know you are getting close.

Anyway, this is where I am with honing. It has been working very, very well for me thus far. If anyone has some constructive (or destructive!) criticism, please hold forth. There are many here who have hone far more razors than I ever will; I welcome the input!

Professor Chaos I am having issues honing my filarmonica. I am going to try to replicate what you've described, that is an interesting observation you've given about water running up the blade

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Professor Chaos I am having issues honing my filarmonica. I am going to try to replicate what you've described, that is an interesting observation you've given about water running up the blade

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it is helpful indeed. also suggests I'm underhoning not overhoning. I think I've been getting some of that suction feel, but the water is running a little up and then off the blade and running before the blade, so that suggests I just gotta keep going. and I think the bevel looks fine so it really may just be this monster needs a ton of polishing.

Although it will be tough for the water to climb all the way up and over that 15/16 monser! :D

Makes me feel better everyone seems to have trouble with Fillarmonicas.

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

probably too many passes. not sure :) Maybe 100 passes (I don't really count). I'm confused because I read sometimes it's almost impossible to overhone, and watch the great LX video on a coticule where he uses tons of passes, but then others are very conservative on how many passes you should make. Also my other razors are doing great and I did as many passes on them.

And if I am overhoning on this one, should I back hone and try again?

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IIRC Alex uses the coticule not only for finishing but also instead of lower grit hones whcih you can if you raise enough slurry. If your razor is almost there you should not need 100 passes on the coticule. And you should not go to the coticule if your razor isn't almost there either unless it is your only hone in which case you should check regularly where you are at. Although it is said you cannot overhone on a coticule it happened to me a couple of times. Going back to a coarser hone is the recommended thing to do. Basically overhoning is nothing more than crumbling of the edge when it becomes too thin. There's no reason why that cannot happen with a coticule. I think the risk of overhoning is one of the reasons behind the pyramids.

Some razors have softer steel and tend to become overhoned much earlier than other razors. You wrote your razor does not tug, that's why I felt your razor might be overhoned. Tugging is what usually happens if it is not sharp enough, an overhoned razor tends to skid over the stubble which explains in my view why you don't get a BBS shave.

This is just my personal opinion.
I don't think you have overhoned the razor.i think yuo r azor isn't sharp enogh-overhone sign is, razor is very sharp gets dull after first pass done
i think after done with your coticle try chorimum oxide 20-30 passes and then go to strop 30-50 passes.Usually after chromium oxide you should be able to feel differences.Hope this helps.Passes depends on your razor may be a little more or less.good luck

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Originally Posted by Kees

Going back to a coarser hone is the recommended thing to do. Basically overhoning is nothing more than crumbling of the edge when it becomes too thin. There's no reason why that cannot happen with a coticule. I think the risk of overhoning is one of the reasons behind the pyramids.

Some razors have softer steel and tend to become overhoned much earlier than other razors. You wrote your razor does not tug, that's why I felt your razor might be overhoned. Tugging is what usually happens if it is not sharp enough, an overhoned razor tends to skid over the stubble which explains in my view why you don't get a BBS shave.

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I agree that you do want to go back a step or two to a coarser hone before your finishing hone. A finishing hone will only refine an edge, it won't improve a partially formed one. I find that if I don't nail an edge the first time around, it was because either the bevel was not good or I did not spend enough time on the moderately fine hones. In those cases, just going back to the final hone never seems to do the trick.

For arguement's sake, lets say that you cannot over-hone on a particular stone. I would still want to learn when it has taken an edge as far as it can go. Otherwise you are needlessly wearing down your stones and your straight.

All that said, the only way to learn is to do it. Learning to hone with a Filly is a real kick in the 'nads. If I am not mistaken, one of the reasons they shave so well is because they are rather hard.

I have found that to completely undercut the meniscus, your hone must be very flat. It is a very good indicator.

You shaved 12 times and then the problems started? That sounds like a rolled edge from incorrect stropping to me. Unless 12 shaves is about the max you get from your other razors.
You have none of the indicators of an overhoned edge. An over honed edge is "spotty" and grabs and skip's. Some parts of the edge are to thin but it is seldom the full length of the edge and stropping will not make go overhoned, usually.

If you did roll the edge and extensive stropping did not fix it then you need to go back to a coarser hone and re-establish the bevel. Then work your way back up the grit ladder.

The Fillys do require some work but are not that bad to hone. I have 3 of the #14's. They are easier to hone than a Henckels Fridour or TI!

Just my two cents,:)

You also mentioned that the razor had a big "smile" shape to the edge.
Be sure to use a rolling X stroke to hone it.

Randy, thanks. Is there a good grahic of the rolling X? I think I can visualize what that would like and tried to do it, but would be interested in seeing it done right. Did the heavydutysquire video have that maybe?

I do normally need to do something beyond stropping after 12 shaves, so I wasn't surprised a needed to touch up at that point. Ie my 11 th shave just stropping was great, my 12th felt a little dulll, so I went to coticule (which I'm new with) and touched up, and it didn't feel dull like it did before touching up and in fact was smooth as heck but just didn't cut well. So maybe I rollled my edge stopping before shave 12 and didn't realize it, or maybe when I touched up (with eight million passes, including slurry) I actually dulled it and lost some of the finish I had had from before.

I don't think I overhoned, so thanks for putting meat around my gut feeling. I've overhoned with pasted strops and when that happens it isn't super smooth like this has been.

Whatever I did, sounds like i need to get a courser stone and try to reset the bevel and go from there.

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Originally Posted by loueedacat

Is there a good grahic of the rolling X?

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There is a 9-part honing video on youtube made by an SRP honemeister:

YouTube - tonycoronado's Channel

He covers the rolling X at the end.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

You shaved 12 times and then the problems started? That sounds like a rolled edge from incorrect stropping to me. Unless 12 shaves is about the max you get from your other razors.
You have none of the indicators of an overhoned edge. An over honed edge is "spotty" and grabs and skip's. Some parts of the edge are to thin but it is seldom the full length of the edge and stropping will not make go overhoned, usually.

If you did roll the edge and extensive stropping did not fix it then you need to go back to a coarser hone and re-establish the bevel. Then work your way back up the grit ladder.

:)

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I wonder if I rolled the edge on the coticule. :shrug: I was just remembering that I had a lot of trouble keeping the Fillarmonica flat on the 2X6 hone at first because it's really big/heavy and has the smile, so maybe I blunted it trying to keep it flat right on the hone. Which again would mean time to go coarser, which means time to order that blue and DMT 1200 from Howard that I wasn't planning to buy for a while.

One other question: if it was originally finished with chrome oxide (I don't know what Lynn did, but whatever he did it was great), is there any chance just touching up with a coticule would dull things because the chrome ox and coticule have different effects on the bevel?

If you rolled the edge on the coticule I'm shocked that you used it 12 times and then it started to pull

But I'm easily shocked, too :)

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

If you rolled the edge on the coticule I'm shocked that you used it 12 times and then it started to pull

But I'm easily shocked, too :)

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I mangled the story:

1. I bought it new from classic and had Lynn hone it before I got it.

2. I used it 11 times and got great shaves, just stropping.

3. 12th shave it tugged a little, so I went to coticule.

4. After coticule, it's been baby smooth, does not pull, but takes four passes to get an ok shave. So I'm thinking I somehow dulled it on the coticule rather than overhoned it.

The Coticule without a slurry is ~10K and the chromium oxide is significantly finer. I cannot recall the exact size, but I want to say it is .5 micron which roughly translates to 60K. So it makes sense that you don't feel that the edge is as sharp as it was.

Also, remember that different honing mediums cut in different ways - an edge finished with .5 diamond paste might feel sharper because the edge is rougher than the .5 chromium oxide finished edge.