Im sure that there is a specific reason, and perhaps its been covered, but to search "X-Pattern" would yeild a ton of results. soo. im wondering what the specific rational for honing, stroping in a X-pattern is. Just wondering, forgive my newbieness
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Im sure that there is a specific reason, and perhaps its been covered, but to search "X-Pattern" would yeild a ton of results. soo. im wondering what the specific rational for honing, stroping in a X-pattern is. Just wondering, forgive my newbieness
I think that there are many reasons and I don't know all of them myself. In some cases, where the hone is not as wide as the blade (i.e., a barber hone), the X pattern makes sure that the entire blade gets sharpened. There are some people who don't use it on a wide hone like the Norton 4K/8K. But if a wide hone has an uneven surface, you're back in the situation where the entire blade is not evenly in contact with the stone. The X pattern corrects for that. A rolling X is used for a so-called "smiling" blade where, again, the issue is that the entire blade cannot be in contact with the stone during the entire pass. Finally, I think that moving the blade obliquely across the stone, instead of at a 90° angle has a better sharpening effect, but I have no empirical evidence of that. Here, I'll stop and let the honemeisters complete the discourse.
that all makes sense, i wondered if perhaps it helped remove more metal from the blade, made the honing faster? helped reduce the chances of getting a foil edge? i dunno, i've been doing it, but just wondered, the smiling blade and narrower hone makes sense also..
Commonly the X-pattern is used because most hones are narrower than the razors. I ONLY use it on the finest of hones as using the X-pattern repeatedly on a coarser hone will lead to a "frown" in the razor. Why? Well that's simple, plain logic: Because the heel and the toe of the razor get much less time on the hone than the middle part of the blade.
You can escape creating frowning razors by honing sequentially at a 90 degree angle as I tried to illustrate below:
Attachment 13896
One or two X-strokes at the and are okay to smoothen things out, but that's that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moviemaniac
I gotta ask for a clarification on your post ??? Are you saying to do 1 lap with the toe off the stone, and then do 1 lap with the heel off the stone????? straight down the stone???
Exactly :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Quote:
Originally Posted by moviemaniac
Then I would have to respectfully point out that your logic of creating a frown would still apply, the middle of the razor would still be getting more attention then the toe and heel....
The X pattern is normally used to create the most even bevels, by allowing the entire edge to slide over the honing surface... On certain razors and/or hones the X is slightly modified to accommodate those variables...
With the right razor and/or a wide hone you could drop the X for a slightly angled lap straight down the hone.....
Keeping in mind that there are many different and effective ways to end up with a shave ready edge....
The X pattern is just easier for most people to use....
I have to agree that for convex blades a modified X-pattern is the best choice. I have personally seen blades that were perfectly straight before and were concave after having been handled by inexperienced honers after too long a time on the 1000 grit-hone. By honing at a 90 degree angle and honing the razor with alternating passes (one time the tip and one time the toe off the hone) you can't get a concave edge due to every part of the blade sitting always flat on the hone. You would have to apply quite some pressure on the middle part of the blade when using that technique to get a concave edge and personally I find it neither easier nor more difficult to perform than honing in an X-pattern.
It's very difficult to explain but this is also backed by experience from long time honers and shavers from Germany.
But, of course, each to his own ;)
So is the general consensus that if I hone in an X pattern exclusively that I will create a frown in my blade ?
No. :D Certainly not unless you are dwelling on the very low grit hones. If you are spending a lot of time in the coticule zone I doubt you'll do too much damage no mattter what you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD
But as a newbie myself I would advise trying different things and not worrying too much about the long term but rather focus on learning how different things work for you. When you get more experienced you'll know what works and you can get a new blade then if you need to (and I doubt you'll need to).
But I think the general consensus is an x pattern is a good idea.
I do not use the X pattern, because when I tried, and was watching, the heel was spending like 100th of a second on the hone, whilst the rest of the blade spent some time on the hone. I got the image of those razors you see with the toe 4/8, the center 5/8 and the heel still original 6/8. I do believe some fellow members tried to explain something about that, yet it still made no sense to me, therefore I choose to avoid it.
I guess its like most things, when at first there seems like only 1 way to do something, it becomes the accepted standard.
I thought that's why hones have corners- so you can use the stone to cut where you need to cut regardless of wide or narrow. You should balance where the edge is abraded to get to or maintain the shape you want
I've got a W&B and a Wards and Co exactly like this. I have been trying alternate honning to sort it out. It is working on the W&B, the heel is slowly getting in line.
i think im supposed to be walking away with the idea that no one way is the best way... but that a variety of methods can be employeed to get the best out of a variety of situations. I just wondered if there was a deffinate answer.. I don't have a problem with doing it, i just got to wondering what the rational was.
this input is interesting, thanks!
That's why I asked Howard (wasn't it?)when he mentioned he was making a video with Hap if they were dealing with the problems that arise when honing and repairing damage rather than just another plain old vid for beginners.
This is the key point here. Although, if you only have one razor and touch it up for years and years in an X-pattern you'll run into the same problems in the end ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by loueedacat
@marklar: your post pretty much sums it up. There is no "perfect" way to hone a razor, each one is different. But you've got to think about what you're doing and that is the key!
But interesting doesn't really get a razor sharp and shaving smoothly either. And then you've got those hundreds of posts on the x-pattern to consider too.Quote:
Originally Posted by marklar
No, this is not the case. The hone coarseness is irrelevant - it just speeds things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD
There are at least two variables that determine how fast the steel is removed
(1) the time a particular point of the razors spends in contact with the hone
(2) the pressure (yes there is always a contact pressure otherwise there will be no change to the metal)
Interestingly enough if the blade is straight and the spine is even the edge naturally comes out straight even when you use narrower hone, as long as the whole edge gets in contact with the hone. If one section of the razor gets narrower the pressure on the other sections is slightly larger and it wears off faster so at the end it evens out.
If your hone is long enough you can angle the razor and have the whole edge be in contact with the stone as in the following images:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...gth-honing.jpg
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...th-honing2.png
The barber's manual shows that honing at an angle to the edge is important for creating striations. This is critical if finishing on a relatively coarse stone, and less important if using extremely fine stones.
For what it's worth, this barber text sums it up in pretty concise terms (pg. 24) and gives an easy cure for the potential problem (of smile vs. frown).
Even on wide hones, I just get better results with an X-pattern; so that's what I always use. I think it handles smiling and slightly warped edges better maybe (or perhaps I get better results out of long familiarity).
indeed - what else can be said.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
I use the X-pattern for one reason. I don't really believe all the other arguments (not much of a believer here:shrug:), but I know this one to be true:
Many razors don't make perfect contact with the hone's surface. The slightest warp or twist in a blade, or curve in the edge results in some parts of the edge touching the hone while other parts remain underhoned. Performing the X-stroke shifts the points of contact and in most cases deals with any contact issues. If not, the next thing to do is "the rolling X-pattern.
All the reason I need to prefer the narrower hones and the X-pattern. The issue of the heel receiving too little attention is easily solved by "curving" the X's a bit, so that the heel stays a bit longer on the hone.
Bart.
Not trying to hijack but do any of you use an x-pattern when stropping? I have a suspicion that it may explain the cuts that I read about in some posts.
Yes I do, but only because my strop is not wide enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
yes, I do, and I even if my strop is wider than the blade I still would.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
FOrgive me if this has been said, but I assumed ( I could be wrong) the x-pattern made the edge smoother. With the x, the stone cuts in one way in one direction and in another way on the way back. THerefore, it's continually buffing off the scratches made on the last pass.. Honing is scratching and if you just keep going back and forth you are to some extent deepening the same scratches. It's just like when you are sanding something. You change direction to make the surface smoother. Hope that makes sense.
Lots of good arguments.
When I started honing I had the same concerns, because 'common sense' says that you'd get a frown.
But after a LOT of honing, I'd have to say that it doesn't happen, as long as you can make even strokes with no pressure differences.
I think that the honing pressure and contact itself is the most important factor. If you cannot maintain good edge contact without pressure, then you will get a frown because you will scrape the middle of the razor over the edge of the stone.
The X pattern has a lot of advantages, but you have to learn to make proper, even passes in which you do not press down but still maintain contact. If you can do that, the X will not make your razor frown.
The combined experience with X pattern on the norton is > 10000 razors.
Someone'd have noticed by now if frowning was an issue :D
