#$%^&$@# Honing!

Ok, I just don't get it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have a new Dovo razor with a stainless blade. Now I thought putting a good edge on a new blade was needed but not overly difficult as only a few strokes were needed. Apparently I was WRONG! :mad:

Here is what I have done so far. Probably 150 passes on a 3000 grit stone and about the same on a Japanese 8000 grit. It also gets 30 passes on the strop before and after each shave and 20 passes on the linen twice a week. It has a pretty keen edge and does shave well.

But I just got a razor back from Straight Razor Designs that I had them hone for me to see how close I was coming to optimal. There is no comparison. When I did the HHT on theirs it worked perfect. On mine...not so much. It didn't even grab the hair much less cut it.

So what am I doing wrong?
-AJ

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Originally Posted by BFMC AJ

Ok, I just don't get it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have a new Dovo razor with a stainless blade. Now I thought putting a good edge on a new blade was needed but not overly difficult as only a few strokes were needed. Apparently I was WRONG! :mad:

Here is what I have done so far. Probably 150 passes on a 3000 grit stone and about the same on a Japanese 8000 grit. It also gets 30 passes on the strop before and after each shave and 20 passes on the linen twice a week. It has a pretty keen edge and does shave well.

But I just got a razor back from Straight Razor Designs that I had them hone for me to see how close I was coming to optimal. There is no comparison. When I did the HHT on theirs it worked perfect. On mine...not so much. It didn't even grab the hair much less cut it.

So what am I doing wrong?
-AJ

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While an acceptable shave, by some standards, can be achieved off an 8k hone. Ideally you want a finer hone, such as a Chinese 12k, Shapton 16k or the like.

Learning to hone effectively takes time for 99.99% of people. Remember, Lynn and Don from SRP have years, if not decades of experience. Thats where the superiority comes from.

If you can't get the edge to grab/cut a hair off your 8000 grit stone, I think you don't yet have a good, sharp bevel. I'd stay with your 3000 grit stone until you can get the edge to pop arm hairs by passing the blade above the skin and it feels sticky on the Thumb Pad Test.

Basic breakdown of honing is always the same, but the method that you use to get there is varied..

First: Set a nice even sharp bevel...
Second: Sharpen that bevel...
Third: Polish and refine the sharp edge...

That it!!!!
So why is it so difficult????

Two major reasons, from what I have seen when honing blades for other people who have tried it, and then given up, and sent me the razors...
The majority are under-honed, there is no bevel set, the edge is just not sharp enough.... Keep in mind that if the edge on your lowest grit is not sharp, I mean hair cutting sharp, then moving up in grits will most likely not get it there.... (using a progression not the Norton pyramids)

The other lesser seen problem is over-honing, this is almost inevitably caused by pressure when honing....

When I look at the edge in the light it appears nice and even with no indication of a line (can't remember what that line is called).

I've avoided using anything below a 3000 grit because I thought that was a no-no for a blade unless it was already damaged in some way.

So should I drop down to a 1000 for 10 or 20 passes and then do a pyramid with 3000 and 8000 grit?

Also, I've seen some people talk about putting some tape on the spine to prevent wear when honing. But that seems like it would mess up the angle. Am I right?

One more question...ok, three. I've seen people talking about using a barber hone to "freshen" the edge with 3 to 5 passes. How often is normal for that? Every two or three weeks? Is that instead of using the linen?

Thanks for the help everyone. I don't expect this to be easy or to produce results anywhere near what SRD got on my other razor...but passing the HHT would be nice. Oh yeah, I decided to send in this razor too so it could be sharpened correctly since I am using both of them for daily use. I'll practice on a couple of others to get honing right.

I have a stainless razor I made several hundred passes on a 1000 grit to work through a double bevel. I don't think 1000 is too course for a tough job

But what do I know, I saw the title of this thread and said to myself "Oh yeah isn't that the truth!"

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I have a stainless razor I made several hundred passes on a 1000 grit to work through a double bevel.

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Oh good God....what is a double bevel? Do I want to know? My head already hurts! :rolleyes:

A double bevel is when a layer of tape is added to the spine thickness so that the bevel is sharpened at a more obtuse angle. Returning the blade to the orginal bevel angle requires much more work than maintaining one consistent angle like you're trying to do.

Old_School pretty much summed it up, your finishing hone is nowhere near as fine as many of the pros use.

You should be able to get the HHT to work with the the hones that you have, but that just comes with practice and a very light touch toward the end of the honing process.

A pasted strop (Chromium Oxide pasted) will bring most edges up to a similar level of smoothness/sharpness if used in moderation. Do a search for how to make one out of balsa wood, very inexpensive and very effective.

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Originally Posted by BFMC AJ

Here is what I have done so far. Probably 150 passes on a 3000 grit stone and about the same on a Japanese 8000 grit. It also gets 30 passes on the strop before and after each shave and 20 passes on the linen twice a week. It has a pretty keen edge and does shave well. (...)
So what am I doing wrong?
-AJ

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I think you're doing nothing wrong. Sounds to me like you get a decent edge. Just stay at it, gaining experience on knowing how many laps it takes to complete the 3000 grit (bevel-setting) stage. This varies on a razors condition. Focus on doing the lightest possible, but even pressured, honing stokes. You'll find that you can improve the sharpness just a little bit more, but still, it'll max out way before the "professional honemeister's level of sharpness".

Finer hones, and time spend learning how using them, is the fun journey lying ahead of you.

But really, I think you're doing fine.

Bart.

AJ, you can do acouple of things now that you know your razor is not nearly as sharp as you'd like it.

Check whether your hones are really nice and flat. Some hones need lapping before you can use them.
Second: do the bevel marking test which will tell you if you hav a good bevel on both sides along the whole cutting edge of the razor. I am not sure whether you'll ever be able to pop hairs off your arm after the 3K as SteveS suggests (sorry Steve, I do disagree with you here).

When you think your bevel is OK then move from the 3K to the 8K and do about 30-50 laps and check if you can pop hairs now. But strop first before you do the arm hair test every time!. If no good after 30-50 laps go back to the 3K and so on till you notice improvement.

Spending much time on the 8K is pointless unless you got your bevel right on the 3K.

Different apporach: send the razor to a honemeister and ask him to analyse your razor for you.

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Originally Posted by BFMC AJ

When I look at the edge in the light it appears nice and even with no indication of a line (can't remember what that line is called). A double bevel but you have to take great care in creating one... or you made one by mistake and lifted the spine....

I've avoided using anything below a 3000 grit because I thought that was a no-no for a blade unless it was already damaged in some way.
Not necessarily, if the bevel is very rounded then a 1k stone can cut that metal away very quickly

So should I drop down to a 1000 for 10 or 20 passes and then do a pyramid with 3000 and 8000 grit? There is no set number of laps, I just did a W&B hollow that required about 120 laps on a 1k to get the bevel right and a Craftsman and a Wacker that required 20 each so that depends on the razor.... Keep in mind that those pyramids that you see were actually developed for use with the Norton stones....

Also, I've seen some people talk about putting some tape on the spine to prevent wear when honing. But that seems like it would mess up the angle. Am I right? No the angle change from one layer of electrical tape is insignificant.... in fact there are some of us that swear by it too...
(a whole other can of worms there)

One more question...ok, three. I've seen people talking about using a barber hone to "freshen" the edge with 3 to 5 passes. How often is normal for that? Every two or three weeks? Is that instead of using the linen?
No there is no qualification of "NORMAL" each person and razor is different... The use of linen only cleans the edge before stropping but this is another topic of heated discussion here... the simple fact is that it is way easier to maintain an edge then to create one...

Thanks for the help everyone. I don't expect this to be easy or to produce results anywhere near what SRD got on my other razor...but passing the HHT would be nice. Oh yeah, I decided to send in this razor too so it could be sharpened correctly since I am using both of them for daily use. I'll practice on a couple of others to get honing right.

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As you can see there is a lot of different information on how to hone razors.... Again I'll take you back to my original post and the 3 stages of honing... Bevel, Sharpen, then Polish..... you have to figure out how to accomplish all three of these stages using the equipment that you have on hand... What might work for me with my honing stroke and the stones I am using can be of no use to you.... even the number of laps that I posted above have no real relevance because that was on my stone with a certain razor and the stroke that I use....

Go to the video section of the forum and check out the tutorial vids by Lynn and Heavydutysquare. If you haven't used a magic marker to check if your bevel is coming in contact with the hone as you do your stroke check that out. I tape all spines with one layer of electrical tape YMMV. I also use a 30X microscope to check an edge before, during and after honing. I consider that essential. Best of luck with it.

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Originally Posted by BFMC AJ

Oh good God....what is a double bevel? Do I want to know? My head already hurts! :rolleyes:

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Don't worry about a double bevel at this point. You should focus on the basics IMHO.

I can't think of a good way to do this, but are there any pics of what the bevel looks like when it's good? I'm trying to practice on my FIL's auction find and i'm not sure how it's coming along.

Great advice so far. Getting an idea of where you are in the process is one of the hardest parts of honing a straight. For me, when the razor starts catching or cutting leg hairs (along the whole length of the blade), I know I'm pretty close. There's a certain amount of trial and error you have to go through. Best of luck. :)



Jordan

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Originally Posted by chem_fun

I can't think of a good way to do this, but are there any pics of what the bevel looks like when it's good? I'm trying to practice on my FIL's auction find and i'm not sure how it's coming along.

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There should be several threads here at SRP with photos of the edges of razors through microscopes. I've found that checking the bevel through a microscope gave me great feedback on how my honing was going. I use a 60X-100X handheld microscope from RadioShack (it was discontinued though). Randydance uses a similar hand scope, and still others use regular microscopes or models that connect to their PCs. The handhelds can be purchased for under $20.00 -- definitely a good investment IMO.