X pattern honing on a 3 inch - inefficient?

I've been following the extremely useful advice on the forum and have been practicing exactly as i've seen and read. I'm trying to learn the X patern and on every stone I have.
I suddenly noticed that while practicing on the norton 4/8k, that an X patern isn't as efficient in creating an even bevel as say using the entire width.
An X pattern is efficient on a 2 inch because even though the toe isn't contacting the hone in the first part of the stroke, it will come down at the end of the stroke . But on the 3" the Toe contact is constant meaning the toe gets honed twice as much as the heel because the heel loses contact.

While I'm not going to get into the philosophy of efficiency and effectiveness, I was wondering what eveyone thought about this. Wouldn't an even bevel be achieved more efficiently if the blade used the entire surface of the Norton?

I have been wondering the same thing. I hope some experienced honers chime in.

This is a common question with a variety of answers. Basically, if your blade sits perfectly absolutely uniformly flat on the hone and your hone is perfectly flat, then you probably don't need to do an x-pattern.

Good luck with that.

In the real world, the blade does not make perfect contact with the hone. The x-pattern makes up for this by varying the contact of the blade with the hone. You can test this for yourself by doing the marker test on the edge of your razor and compare the removal using the two stroke options.

Think of the old barber hones. I don't think a single one was ever made 3" wide. It's not because they didn't have enough material to make hones in the old days. The hones were optimized for their purpose and that meant they were all between 1.5 and 2 inches in width. The x-pattern seems to be the optimal honing stroke and the x-pattern negates the need for a 3" wide hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

This is a common question with a variety of answers. Basically, if your blade sits perfectly absolutely uniformly flat on the hone and your hone is perfectly flat, then you probably don't need to do an x-pattern.

Good luck with that.

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On this I agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

In the real world, the blade does not make perfect contact with the hone. The x-pattern makes up for this by varying the contact of the blade with the hone. You cant test this for yourself by doing the marker test on the edge of your razor and compare the removal using the two stroke options.

Think of the old barber hones. I don't think a single one was ever made 3" wide. It's not because they didn't have enough material to make hones in the old days. The hones were optimized for their purpose and that meant they were all between 1.5 and 2 inches in width. The x-pattern seems to be the optimal honing stroke and the x-pattern negates the need for a 3" wide hone.

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While this clearly validates the need for X pattern on a 2 inch stone, It still doesn't answer the question for 3" in which the toe, regardless of flatness of the blade, still recieved more hone attention if done using X pattern. This is a fact, on a 3" hone using X pattern strokes, the Toe of the blade is honed throughout the ENTIRE stroke whereas the heel is not, therefore more metal is removed from the toe in that stroke than in the heel. If creating and polishing an even bevel off a 3", I see no reason why an X stroke should be used. On a 2" an X would provide an even bevel. That I agree.

Many have the norton 4/8k and I'm sure that some clarification would be useful. I'm trying to avoid conventional thinking and looking for not just what "works" but what works best.

answer to your question is yes. x pattern needs in barber hones(small size)+less then 3 inch hones.this is my personal opinion.
i am sure a lot people will come and say it does give better edge etc.etc .there is no one will show that in any book or scientifically or by microscope .to me it is nonsense. You have 3 inch hone use it straight up and down.good luck

My thoughts are that your findings will change as your honing improves :)

yes, straight up and down should achieve the desired result

I think I am going to have to agree with my buddy Gugi and say as you hone more and more razors you are going to find there is no such thing as a standard pattern...
The only thing that I have found to be true, is that every part of the edge has to eventually slide across the hone whatever kind it may be.... To create a sharp edge......

a little off topic, but maybe not really: does speed matter? I've always wondered. When I started I always went very slowly down the hone, but I've since become more comfortable with the hone and do it faster now, and it seems like sometimes I get better results, but sometimes it seems like the razor doesn't take to the hone as well.

Does it matter as long as it lays straight on the hone from toe to heel?

Personally I feel angle is important too. I get better shave results, I feel, if the striation pattern is not perpendicular to the edge. Of course, this can be achieved by straight up and down the hone strokes, with the heel leading. Or, by X-patterning. Or both. If you angle the blade far enough, you can go straight up and down on a narrowish hone. But in effect that is just an X-pattern anyway, for all intents and purposes.

James.