Bad honing or bad steel??

Not sure where this question belongs, but here it goes:

Is it possible that the type of steel used in a razor could keep it from honing well? I've always heard that Indian/Pakistani razors were no good, so I've never messed with them for that reason. But is there any guarantee that just because a razor says Solingen, Germany, Sheffield, etc. on the tang, it could be considered "good" steel?

The reason that I ask is I have a cheapo Loeffler & Sykes (sp?) razor from ebay. Tang says Solingen on it and I bought it specifically to learn how to hone. I've been working on for the past couple of months on and off, trying different techniques but I've never gotten a good shave (vs. my daily shaver honed by one of the senior members here) and it's never passed a HHT. Short of describing a month's worth of work, I'll just say I've watched a lot of video's and read a bunch of threads and I can't get the razor in good shaving condition.

How long did it take you guys to learn how to hone...I fear some are you going to says years:confused: I'm just anxiously awaiting the day when I get a good shave with a razor I honed myself.

Has anybody had a razor that just wouldn't hone very well?

Thanks for the help guys!

Robert

Robert,

Possible, but unlikely.

You should first tell us about your hones, and how you use them.
The problem is often in the method, sometimes in the blades grind, extremely rare in the steel alloy and the heat treatment. Even soft steel can be sharpened to shave, but it wont hold an edge for long.

My best bet is, you're probably up for some honing advice.

Best regards,
Bart.

Although I have had some that are a bear to hone, I have never had a vintage razor not finally pop....
I have had one bad Wapi that the edge just kept crumbling at the heel and I finally just gave up on it...
I had a Fromm that I had to really mess with to get it to pop, but it did finally....
I did a quick search of the brand that you mentioned and didn't find anything listed, but I am at work so I dont have my razor books and notes with me.... I'll check again for you tonight..

There are tons of tricks of the "trade" so to speak that are talked about in the advanced honing section that you might try...
Different strokes etc:
You also didn't say what stones you are using???? or what technique???
That would help....

I've tried to mix up my technique until something worked for me, but here's what I tried last night:

This was my first time honing with a taped spine so I did 15 laps on 1k sandpaper on a kitchen tile to start off. I was using X strokes as the toe doesn't really get honed without it (I've marked the edge with sharpie a lot trying to perfect my technique in the past). I had read in a post that one guy didn't leave his 1200 grit stone until it passed the HHT, so I did increments of 5 laps trying to fine tune it to pop hairs. After about 5 or so increments I just moved on to the 4k/8k as the razor never passed the HHT and I was afriad of over honing...maybe it was already over honed after those increments?

I did an aggressive pyramid on the Norton 4k/8k followed by 50 laps on a chinese 12k. Finished up with 15 laps on a CrO paddle strop. And of course the final 50 laps on a plain strop. It never passed the HHT test, and I know some say it's not important but the test shave wasn't good, etiher. I'm just using the HHT as the standard becuase when my daily shaver really seemed to give me a good shave was when it finally passsed the HHT.

I'm a little confused on when the razor should pass the HHT test. The post I read said after the 1200 grit stone, but from my experience the razor I had honed by a senior member did not pass HHT until I did about 30 laps on the CrO paddle.

Any thoughts?

HHT is too varied to use in early honing progression, at lower grits a ragged edge can give a false positive....

In general the tests go in this order if you are going to use them...

Bevel is correct and sharp = Thumb Nail Test
Edge is getting close to shaving sharp = Thumb Pad test or the Arm Hair test

After stropping = HHT should just go ping !!!!! (if you have to manipulate the hair it is not a true HHT) BTW finer hair is harder to pop, that's why I only use the wifes....


It doesn't mean the shave is going to be comfortable but it does mean the edge is sharp......

Quote:

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Edge is getting close to shaving sharp = Thumb Pad test or the Arm Hair test

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Could you explain the arm hair test?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rshaw

I've tried to mix up my technique until something worked for me, but here's what I tried last night:

This was my first time honing with a taped spine so I did 15 laps on 1k sandpaper on a kitchen tile to start off. I was using X strokes as the toe doesn't really get honed without it (I've marked the edge with sharpie a lot trying to perfect my technique in the past). I had read in a post that one guy didn't leave his 1200 grit stone until it passed the HHT, so I did increments of 5 laps trying to fine tune it to pop hairs. After about 5 or so increments I just moved on to the 4k/8k as the razor never passed the HHT and I was afriad of over honing...maybe it was already over honed after those increments?

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That guy could very well be me...:)
I'm not a big fan of the sandpaper. It has a tendency making a little wave in front of the razor. If this happens, even a nearly invisible bit, your edge will never become sharp.
Unless you need to hone out a chip, or corrosion, or some other mishap, I would not use that sandpaper. (Even then, I'd use a coarser hone, instead of sandpaper)

Your Norton 4K is perfectly capable of setting a proper bevel on your razor, and you should stay on it till you can pop a hair. Don't worry about overhoning. (It doesn't ruin your razor, should it happen) Stay on that 4K till the razor cuts arm hair effortlessly. Even if you don't make it to the HHT, this should be easily doable. When the armhair test is good, continue on the 4K with very light strokes, just a dozen laps more. Try the HHT again. Do another dozen light laps if it fails.
If it doesn't pass after that, don't worry too much about it, and start doing doing your pyramids.
After one cycle, test for the HHT again. If it passes, do your 50 on the Chinese 12K.
Don't use the CrO, but go straight to the leather for 100 laps.

This should give you a fine shaveready edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rshaw

I'm a little confused on when the razor should pass the HHT test. The post I read said after the 1200 grit stone, but from my experience the razor I had honed by a senior member did not pass HHT until I did about 30 laps on the CrO paddle.

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IMHO, the HHT is a fine test, if you know how to read it. At the bevel setting stage, it can tell you that you're good to proceed to the finer grits. You may need to fumble a bit, by dragging the hair accross the edge, before it catches and pops. At this stage, that's quite acceptable.
After stropping a completely honed razor, with some experience, the way the HHT performs can tell you something about the keenness of the edge. A not superkeen edge behaves as I decribed above. A better edge, pops the hair with a sound, as soon as it touches the edge. A premium edge fells the hair silently, seemingly before it touches the edge.

Good luck,

Bart.

That last post sounds promising...it seems like I can always get the razor to shave arm hairs effortlessly. Most of time I can run the razor through my arm hair it will pop off a few free hanging hairs. So maybe I just need some more time on the 4k. Then onto the pyramid and 12k. I'll give it a try when I get home!

Thanks for the help guys:bow

The 1000 grit sandpaper is what I use also but only to remove nicks and old, oxidised steel, not to set a bevel. I have to be careful that the sandpaper does not bunch up in front of the edge as I am honing or else it will "round" the edge. I am also looking for an alternative to the sandpaper and will be trying a Scottish Dalmore Blue stone and a natural Japanese stone in the near future as options. I do not like the Norton 1000 because it is so slow and the DMT diamond hones are to harsh on the steel.

For bevel setting I use the Norton 4000. It has always worked for me.
For testing the 4k edge you can use the TPT, arm hair test and maybe the HHT. I never used the HHT in the past for the 4K. I saved the HHT for the Norton 8000 edge. That always worked for me.

One of the major errors I have seen new guys do is to hone to fast.
Slow down your stroke to about 1 second per side of the edge. Watch the water flow in front of the edge. That will tell you where your pressure on the edge is. It should take about 60-90 minutes to hone a razor from scratch.

Well, tried to hone the razor again last night but I still couldn't get it to pass the HHT.

Started out on the 4k in increments of 10 laps trying the HHT between each, after about 8 of those it still didn't pass (cut arm hair just fine though), so I just moved on to a conservative pyramid and stopping. Still couldn't pass the HHT after the stropping.

The shave wasn't terrible...but not great either. It was better than past shaves, which is promising. I guess I'll try staying on the 8k to see if that will help. Maybe the edge isn't was sharp as it should be coming onto the 4k from the 1k sandpaper:shrug:...I'll be saving for 1k stone!