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I am currantly using a 12k kitiyama hone to end my honing process before i go onto chr.5 then stroping.
I am considering buying a yellow belgium coticule from howard at perfect edge for the final polish or finished edge as the hones are quite expensive i don't mind if i will get a better result from the coticule could any one advice me if basicly i would be wasting my cash and should stick with my kitiyama or if the coticule would be worth investing in and would defanatley give a better edge.
The feel and finish of your razor is Chromium oxide.
I think it makes very little difference which 10,000/12000 grit hone you use.
If you come of a 10,000 grit hone, you just need a couple more passes on the chromium oxide than if you come off a 12,000 grit hone.
Some argue that the more you polish on the chromium oxide, the lesser the potential time before you need to re hone again.
Some however prefer the feel they get shaving directly off a natural hone.
I have used both the hones you are comparing and I think the Kitiyama gives the smoother sharper edge .
IMHO it is the better finishing/polishing hone of the two. Incidentally, I think the Escher stone that you can get from Mueller is an even better finishing hone for the money.
What the Yellow coticule offers is a more flexible range of say 6000 grit to 10000 grit.
I have found the Kitiyama and the Escher don't work as well below the 10,000 grit level.
Having said all this if I could have only one hone it would be a Belgian yellow coticule.
hones are addiction subjects.
i think you don't need if you are not addicted to it.i have never used Katayama or any Japan hones but i have at least 6-8 belgians. i do know grit's are different in america and japan .12k american grit then definitely you don't need belgian but you mean 12 k japan then i think you may need belgian.If i guess there is 2-4k differences between american and japan grits.
hope this help.
I realize the Kitayama is rated at 12K and the Coticule works about the same and I have both of them and to be honest I find the Coticule is far superior to the Kitayama. Mine basically gathers dust. I rarely use it anymore. However if you like the CrO in the end I don't think you will see an improvement going from the Kitayama to CrOor the Coticule to CrO. Personally I'm more a hone guy than pastes and off the coticule I have perfection.
As a general rule of thumb, natural stones will produce a smoother edge than man made hones of the same grit rating. The abrasive particles in man made hones are more jagged than those in natural stones which leaves a slightly rough edge in comparison.
But as has been said, CrO will make the previous stone immaterial to the end result.
I think this situation is a classic case of the old saying "All roads lead to Rome".
It ultimately depends on your own results, this honing thing. Each natural hone is it's own entity. One coticule is different from the next, perhaps marginally, perhaps strikingly or perhaps the two hones you are comparing appear to be identical. Ditto for the Chinese hones you mention, Eschers and the like.
Man made hones are made with quality control (this of course never happened with natural stone hones), each hone can be expected to behave much like the next as this is how they have been designed to work. Man made hones have always been designed to work better than natural stones, they cut faster, have more consistent grit and get the job done predictably. This does not mean it's perfect... for some tasks, such as razors, it may not be desirable to create the perfect (from an engineers standpoint) edge but rather the slightly rounded and smooth shaving perfect edge that depends on so many factors it's impossible to predict from an engineers standpoint. :D This leads to the sort of thing we straight shavers frequently see... hone acquisition disorder, the constant search for the perfect set of hones/strops/honing compounds and their ordered use. Rarely do two straight shavers agree completely on what the ultimate combination is... many admit it depends on the individual razor and the steel it's made from....... or other factors we may not even have thought of yet.
So, when asked a question about honing and what might be the best solution, rember that what works for one, does not necessarily work for another but both answers may very well be correct... for the individual answering.
In my case, it's rather strange... the results I get. I appear to get a sharper edge from my Shapton 16k than from my Coticule but the Shapton leaves a harsher edge... not quite my preference in shaving. However, using the Shapton first and then going back to the Coticule appears to give me a sharper edge than the Coticule can on it's own but by finishing that sharper edge with the Coticule retains the increased sharpness but moderates the edge so that the shave is comfortable. I have found the same with the Chromium oxide strop. I used to use the pasted strop after my coticule but I think I'm getting an even better edge now that I go 16k, Coticule and then pasted strop. That said, I've not tried all the possible variations yet and I still find that different razors respond differently to my hones/pastes.
So, we do not know if you have an exceptional Chinese natural hone or a crappy one, nor do we know if the coticule you might order would be better or worse than the Chinese hone you have now and frankly we can only speculate how a pasted strop might fit into your ultimate results. What we can say is that historically, the coticules have had a remarkable reputation for honing razors and rarely do we hear of disappointments with these hones. The Chinese hones are inexpensive, appear to work well and many find them suitable for a final hone... So, from where I stand, I can only see you making up your own mind as to which hone works best and if the coticule you might buy is better/different/worse than what you are using now.... Frankly, if what you are using now is giving you comfortable and close shaves, and you're not spending lots of time trying to keep your razors sharp enough to shave, is there really a need to fix things?
Well... for someone suffering from HAD, the answer is simply, no, you cannot rest until you've bought one of each hone available in the world, and sampled more than one of each of the natural hones. Of course this also means keeping an eye on estate sales... there might just be that elusive perfect hone, owned by someone for decades, perhaps never used that might just be better than the other 8000 hones you've already purchased.......<sigh>.
Regards
Kaptain " I have no illusions of actually having helped you with this reply" Zero :gth
Very interesting post, Kaptain Zero. I enjoyed reading it.
+1 Everything the Kaptain said but especially the above :bowQuote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
hmmm...I guess I need to check all my blades now under the stereo scope and see which one is really flat. And then practice using the 12k and see if it's really the same as my CrO. That would save a step if it really does the same thing.
Please be careful about mentioning microscopes, stereo scopes, electron beam scopes and inspection scopes etc.! :nono: Honestly, I'm in deep enough water as it is..... I don't need to contract MAD as well! :w OK, I'll spell it out then.... "Microscope Acquisition Disorder" :D
Regards
Kaptain "Mrs. Zero has just stated that if I bring home anything else shaving related, the only thing I'll be collecting is dust as I rest in an urn on the bookshelf...:eek: " Zero
lol...sorry kaptain. Didn't mean it. If it helps any. The stereo scope isn't mine. I "borrowed" it from school. And only because I'm new enough to honing that I wanted to see what I was doing. I aim to get to the point that I don't need it (or only need a loupe), a bit quicker if I tell how it feels and looks assisted by the scope. I'd say if I had anything it would be RAD. Honest, the scopes not that useful :)
Yeah well.... I was just kidding.... mind you, the missus wasn't! :eek:
I've got a 30x single lens loupe that I picked up from Widget Supply, it's a far east cheapy but works better for me than the RS microscope as I have a larger field of vision and things don't go the opposite way your eye tells you they should. I can't say I've really felt the need for anything more.... want yes, need... no.
Regards
Kaptain "Honey, why are you cleaning that shotgun now...... after 20 years of hanging on the wall?!?! <gulp> " Zero
This is very interesting to me! Since I started using the Shapton on glass system, I haven't used my Coticule at all. In fact, you might say, "I haven't looked back!" What you have said gives me reason to think, but a problem I have is this: The Shapton system is very, very successful for me. Not only that, I am using a large number of razors presently. Over 70 at the present time. I am redecorating my bathroom and I have mounted them all on the walls. So, I am going through each one and bringing them all up to par, so to speak. The problem here is the differences with all these different razors. but if I come accross one that is really sharp, and the shave is irritating, I will fit the Coticle in before I hit the Chromium Oxide and see if this makes a difference in the shave. It sounds interesting, I may try it anyway just to see if I get a smoother shave.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
Yes, interesting!