Absolute disaster; ready to throw in the towel

I have just spent the past 4 hours trying to hone two razors for the first time. I used to think I was a patient person, but I'm now so frustrated with the whole honing thing that I'm ready to chuck my razors and stones right out the window.

I started off with a vintage Sheffield razor I got on ebay for the purpose of honing. When I first got it, I thought it was amazingly sharp for an ebay special. It shaved arm hair with ease and passed the HHT with ease. Somehow, though , it seemed to quickly lose its edge, and just did not cut very well after a number of shaves.

Enter my Norton 4K/8K. I tried Josh's conservative pyramid a time or two, but the razor still seemed dull; maybe even duller than before. As I was honing, I noticed that the edge of the razor did not rest evenly against the hone. At first, I thought it might be the hone. The hone had been lapped by a professional, however; also, I tested the razor on other surfaces that I knew were flat. Same problem---the razor "rocked" a bit back and forth---when the spine was completely flat against the hone, the toe side of the edge was flat, but the heel side of the edge was not. I worked on it solely on the 4K side, hoping to even it out. That didn't work, so I decided to whip out my DMT 8C 325 grit stone. I honed. And I honed. And I honed.

Okay---this is the part where all the honemeisters will either laugh or cringe . . . I honed for over an hour on the 325 grit stone. I was determined to even out the blade. Well after an hour and a half, the rocking motion seemed almost gone, but the blade now was as dull as could be. And, when I looked at the bevel, it was completely out of whack. On one side of the blade, the bevel starts out nice and wide near the heel and then narrows down to almost nothing near the toe. On the reverse side, the opposite: wide near the toe, tapering off to almost nothing near the heel. ARRRGGG!!!

Anyone know what happened here? What should I do next?

Okay, so I gave up on the old Sheffield and decided just to chill out and do some "safer" honing on my Double Arrow that also seemed to have gotten dull. I did Josh's conservative pyramid---absolutely no results. I did the pyramid again two more times---dull as can be. I then decided to just start doing 5 passes or so on just the 4K side and testing until I could get it to pass the HHT & shave arm hair. I repeated this many, many times, and the razor just seemed to be getting duller & duller. I got so frustrated with failing the HHT that I finally wrapped the hair completely around the blade and tugged on both ends of the hair---it was so dull it didn't even cut the hair then.

Each time I honed with both razors, I began with just minimal pressure---just enough to keep the spine and edge of the blade flat on the stone. Out of frustration, however, I gradually started adding a bit more pressure. Otherwise, I tried my best to follow the directions I've seen from Josh, Lynn, and other tutorials.

GRRRR! I had heard so often that honing has a steep learning curve, and boy do I believe it now.

I'm so tempted to just box everything up and sell it off. I've been shaving on and off for the past 4 months with straights, and the shaving part had really begun to improve. The amount of maintenance this takes, though, is just unbelievable.

Any words of comfort, to keep me from bagging the whole str8 thing? I really don't want to spend any more money or time having a pro hone them for me. Besides, I don't know how that would help me with my own honing. Where do I go from here?:gth

First and foremost-RELAX and take a breath. Honing is part art and part science. To some it comes easier than to others. To quit is admitting utter defeat. Patience to some is a virtue,but it is absolutely required to get good honing results.

From what you have stated the blade was warped and in that case was not the best razor to learn to hone. Even though you have viewed Lynn's video and had some instruction-but that is just a start - a very basic start.

I'll let the honemeister's chime in as I couldn't put in words what needs to be done to a warped razor. I can only offer support and encourage you to realize that frustration is part of the learning process and not to give up because you didn't get the results you expected.

The thing with ebay specials is: you don't know what you'll get.
If a razor is really warped, it is normal that you won't get it shaveready if it is your first honing project.

Honing isn't rocket science, you you have to get the feel for it. That takes time.
A good way to learn honing is to buy a razor in good condition, and learn to hone that.
Buy one from a member here so that you can trust that you get a decent blade.

The pyramids are the way to go, once the blade passes the thumbnail test.
If it grips your wet nail along every part of the edge, 2 or 3 pyramids should get you a reasonable edge.
Also, don't realy on the HHT. it is a fickle thing. strop and shave. that is the best thing there is.
Apart from that...
Make sure your norton is lapped flat, and have patience.
I needed more than 1 razor and 1 evening to learn the ropes.

Here is my new suggestion to everybody that is learning to hone :hmmm:
BUY a Dubl Duck in fairly good shape and hone it, they are by far the most consistently easy to hone brand of razor I have seen....
You just tried to learn how to hone on two very hard razors, the Sheffield had the "warp" and needed a rocking stroke, and Double Arrow's although a nice low priced razor, are not all that easy to hone....


PS: Send me the DA and I'll set a bevel on it then you finish honing it.... just cover the shipping.... PM me if you want to...

I've never honed a duck. But they are pricey, and with learning to hone, you will make mistakes and scratch the blade, scuff the scales, ...
't would be a shame to waste a duck.
Buy a good wapienica instead. They cost a fraction of a duck, are easy to hone, and good shavers.

Wow, an hour on the 325. I'm surprised you don't have a toothpick now. Unless you have quite a bit of honing experience Eboy specials can be a challenge however you know it seemed to shave pretty good and then lost its edge so you probably only needed a touchup. The Norton 8K or higher was probably all you needed unless there was edge damage.

So what to do now. You need to resolve the bevel which probably the 4K or equivalent should be able to do and once in good shape on to the 8K. Just take it slow. Once piece of advice when honing. If things aren't going well STOP. Pick it up again another day. Once you get frustrated thats a recipe for disaster.

Well, on the off chance you want to fix the sheffield yourself, here's something that worked for me. This is not the best way, but doesn't require you to buy anything else and usually works on warped blades. Using sandpaper flatten the long skinny edge of the norton (the one without the name) and hone in an x pattern with the 8K side nearest you. The narrow stone will conform to the warped blade better and using an x pattern honing from the 4K to the 8K in a single stroke is like a mini pyramid. 20 strokes on each side of the blade should be enough to bring it back into shape then strop.

Wow, that last suggestion is perfect for my flea market disasters that i have been wondering what to do with, so warped i was afraid to even think about honing them.

I would recommend looking at the tutorial by . . sorry, i've forgotten his name, one of the regulars out there must know the guy who did a 9part video tutorial on honing ansd stropping, especially the last part about the rocking/rolling action for warped razors, was his name Heavy Duty or something like that?

It's on here somewhere!

Stick with it mate, learn from the pro.s and i have found it definately worth while getting a new razor that is professionally honed, then you know what you are aiming for with the older ones.

DON'T GIVE UP!!!

When I first tried honing a razor it was a Dovo Special and I only used pyramids. It didn't seem to work for me at all. I did a lot of experimenting after that before I got one sharp. Now it is like second nature in terms of what kind of stroke or touch the razor in question needs. You really need to try some different techniques and find your niche. Personally I now NEVER use pyramids, but that's just me! Also, is your sheffield's spine straight or curved? Is it a wedge? If the answer to either of these questions is yes, then it won't be an "easy" one to hone. Wedges take a lot of work and if the spine is at all curved, then the edge probably isn't even supposed to be straight across, i.e. flat on the hone. In that case you need to get into X patterns and even rolling X's...

I don't know what the deal is with your razor without seeing pics but a lot of new guys have trouble figuring out if a razor is warped or just "smiling" in a good way.

+1 to wise Philadeph's sage advice.

It sounds to me like you got really unlucky. A warped razor and a Double Arrow. The DA has a smile, which means a slight curve in the edge, from tip to heel (so when you look straight at the blade, it has a 'smile'). This makes for a nice shaver, especially to start out, but it is also really difficult (impossible?) to hone like you see everyone do it in the videos. Ditto to a warped razor. Both of these would work with a 'rolling X' pattern (a quick search will turn up lots of results). If you have experience sharpening knives or woodworking tools, you could jump right into the rolling X with ease; otherwise, buy yourself a cheapie or two at a flea market or ebay *with a straight and flat blade* and start there.

You'll be glad you didn't throw everything out the window.

Best of luck,

cass

Don't give up! The satisfaction of shaving with a razor you have honed is great! Check out HeavyDuty's vids in the Honing FAQ (the link is in a reply message). You picked a couple of doozies to start with.

I have been honing chef's knives and other blades for ages...and I had to start from scratch when doing a razor. I asked lots and lots and lots of questions (:tu to all those who responded patiently), watched the videos several times, read posts here and then gave it a shot. First time - got an edge but not shave ready. Back to the Belgian and the Coticule....stroke, stroke, stroke...no, not yet...stroke, stroke stroke...nope...stroke, stroke...etc. Finally, I got it where I wanted it. Bruno is correct - the ONLY way to guarantee that a blade shaves well is to shave with it. The various tests are just to give you feedback from the blade as to how you are progresssing...look for the mirror edge, listen for a consistent sound during the pass (a sudden change in tone, IME, means there is a rough spot), feel the steel as you move across the stone...these blades are made from some of the finest steel produced during their time - it will communicate to you. After practice, you will hear, feel, and see the "sharpness" of the edge.

Honing is like most simple things....very time-consuming to master as, while there are only a few variables, they must all be in sync, with little room for error. I would liken honing to spit shining boots, making meringue, frying chicken, grilling a steak, applying finishes, etc. - all fairly simple as far as steps, ingredients/components, but leave one thing out of sync and you get to start over.

:D

Thanks to everyone for the advice/encouragement. I really hate giving up, so I'll check into some of the things you mention. I want this to work out, but I also don't want to spend all of my free time trying to figure it out. I'm willing to invest some time, but not hours upon hours. I guess I just had a rough start yesterday and should have stopped instead of kept going.

Thanks again!

Payne

Mostly very sound advice in the replying posts.

If I may add a few thoughts...

1. Learning how to hone razors is a bit like learning how to ride a bike. Some people might catch on very quickly, but most don't. It's not important, all that matters is that you'll master it eventually. In the beginning, regular practice is important. Don't do one nerve wrecking session once every week. As soon as you get fed up, your honing stroke will indubitably suffer, and the likelihood of poorly judged honing decisions increases. Do regular and enjoyable honing sessions instead.

2. The idea behind all honing is that two sides of a blade meet at the cleanest possible line.
To accomplish this with hones:
-all hones must be flat.
-the spine must always keep a point of contact with the hone.
-stroke pressure must be kept low, and rather become lower, and never higher, during the the course of honing.
Fail one of these conditions, and your razor shall never be keen. Not even by one remote chance in a billion.

3. Avoiding pitfalls is very important in honing. One error can undo previously done work and render future honing steps futile. Start by sticking close to a given recipe from a reputed source.
(heavydutysg135's honing series in the video section, is a good example: http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...eo-series.html)
There are other approaches, that are equally proficient, but the unexperienced mixing up of different methods can pose such a pitfall.

4. About that vintage Sheffield. As already clarified in other posts, that razor has a warped blade. You seem to have done enough work to hone that out. The resulting reversed tapering on both of the bevel panes needs to be taken for granted. The shape of those panes doesn't matter, as long as they're meeting in that perfect clean line I spoke of in point 2 above. Your next goal on that razor is to refine the coarse scratch pattern of your DMT 325. That will take ages on the 4K. I personally use two intermediate grits to bridge such a gap. (a DMT 600 and a 1200)
DMT's need to be broken in properly. Otherwise your edge will be microchipped.
Once a razor has a decent bevel, you never need to go coarser than your Norton 4K again.

5. If you manage to learn how to ride a sloppy bike, you'll be able to ride them all.:nj

Good luck,
Bart.

I know what you men about wasting hours trying to learn, i just wanted to get on with it, but I have accepted that this is a long term project and like any art to be mastered it will take perhaps months of patient practice.

Learn to chill with the process, let it become a meditation of sorts, you can't paint a masterpeice in a day, it takes years to learn to really paint.

When you can shave to perfect smoothness with a few skillful strokes and hone your razor sharper than a surgeons scalpel in a few minutes then you will really appreciate the time it took to get to that stage.

if iti was that easy there'd be a lot more people doing it.

At least that's what i am telling myself right now.