Shinden Suita Hone.

I purchased this hone from the seller "mifuqwai" on E Bay. There is also an internet site 天然ç*¥çŸ³ é‘¿ 鉋 鋸 Fujibato.com and the seller is named Tomonori Nakaoka and his address is in Osaka Japan.
The hone is describe as a Shinden Suita Number R2. I think the R means its of a size suitable for razors wrather than a much bigger more expensive hone for carpenters tools or swords. It cost me $47 plus postage.
Postage is from $20 upwards and so is significant. It is about $50 for fast insured postage. But it is a heavy item and Japan is a long way away.
(So for the record, when Old School says prices include postage, this is costing him a lot of money)
For the record, Tomonori Nakaoka is great to deal with and his English is good enough. Just remember you can pay thousands of $'s for the prefect Japanese hone and the differences between them all is not in proportion to the price tags.
The stone edges at the largest points are 7.5" X 3" x 1" and the smallest are 4.5" x 3" x 1" on one side and 5.5" x 3" x 1" on the other. It's plenty to hone on with ease.

Some pictures:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/...313b3f.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3192/...eb3140.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3058/...4de13d.jpg?v=0

I'm sorry the Japanese markings are rubbing out, but I have had to do a lot of work to get a honeable surface.
Out came the Bosch orbital sander and while I've been getting a flat surface on the bigger surface, the side with the ink markings had been rubbing and the words are fast dissappearing. No matter, it's not an expensive hone in the collectors sense and the side with the lettering is the next task anyway. It also needs a layer taking off to get a fully smooth surface as there is some flaking along one edge which in fairness you can hone over, but I prefer not, I'm fussy like that.

The stone is quite hard. May be it dried out too quickly in the post. It doesn't matter, with a little bit of work it will be right as rain. I'm telling you all of this just to let you know, if you pay $47 don't expect total perfection out of the box. If your not practical, you may be best to leave these alone, but if your up for a bit of heavy lapping work with different grades of sandpaper, these hones are a true bargain. Just to let you know, I started with 120 grit to remove the flakey surface and get to a solid ground. Then through the grits, 400, 800, 1000, 1500, rubbing stone. Now it feels smooth like a baby's bottom and the intrusions do not effect the blade at all.

I don't really know how good it is yet, because it's still a work in pogress. I have honed one razor on the now flat backside of the hone and the shave was smooth. I didn't use CR OX and this tells me the hone is a bit special, but I don't know how special yet. It is certainly giving a finish beyond my escher or my coticule.
I have a much softer Japanese hone which I can use to take the razor up to an 8K level and this new suita is way beyond that. It's pretty to look at as well in a rugid sort of way. It looks like marble. I'm pleased with the purchase and pleasantly surprised.

Which to use? The coticule, the escher, the chosera or the suita.

Watch the classifieds to see which ones I sell, I can't afford to sit on all of these rocks. They all deserve to be used regularly. They are all good. It's just my hone fetish took a hold last month, but it's under control now. Honest.

The only natural hones I have sen in that price range are either very coarse, I.E nowhere near a final polisher for razors. Or they have been lumps of mud.

For the size and price, you can pretty much rest assured, that is not a final polisher.

I guess you can rub it off anyway you like. The one i got from nakaoka-san was sealed. Just remember to seal it when you finish finishing of the edges.

These are great stones to finish the sides of a knife with, in addition to fine sharpening. Another good thing is they will cut :).

I just shaved on total hone job by me 1000 to couticule no strop. Tomorrow i could take it to suita and see if it does better.
Good point about the size thing English. Remember Shavers a "razor stone" from Nakaoka is not the same thing as Os's stamped nihonkamisori

razor is a size just above chip and sickle

I've finished off the lapping on this hone and honed up a razor and test shaved again but this time the shave was poor. It was actually too close and my face feels gently razor burnt, evenly and all over. Not something I have felt for years I might add.

Either it was a really close shave or I burred the edge or the hone is only useful as a doorstop.

So at this moment in time, I am unsure if it was my honing or the hone. I suspect the latter.
Also the lapping has revealed some impurities that do not look very clever.

I was looking for a natural hone that would save me from the need to use Cr Ox and I'm not sure that this one fits the bill.

Needs more experimentation and lots of time so will remain a work in progress for now.

Hey, Old School, all Japanese hones are lumps of clay aren't they? Just some hold a finer grit than others.;)

Maybe Old School is correct. He usually is. In life, you get what you pay for.

You sure do English.

I bought a Suita stone (Oozuku) for 70AUD. Lapped the surface, and all the little holes came up that Suita is named after. Problem is, they are all scratchy and make the hone useless. Every few weeks I try lapping away to get to a usable layer, but no luck so far. It is a hard stone, so I have not lapped very much of the stone away in that time. And I still have hopes that one day I will stumble onto a honeable layer...

But yours sure does look purty. I hope you have better luck with yours that I have had with mine.

James.

Thanks James, you have really cheered me up.:cry:

:o Sorry mate. I am sure you will not have the same issue as me. As soon as I touched my diamond plate to its surface, I was in trouble. Sounds like you have already lapped yours a bit with no problems. I think you are alright.

James.

[quote=English;274261
Hey, Old School, all Japanese hones are lumps of clay aren't they? Just some hold a finer grit than others.;)
[/quote]

Well yes they are, but when I mention lump of mud, I mean literally, you put water on it and then a blade, and next thing you know you have a pool of sludge and no stone.

Well that is not the case with the hone that I received from Tomonori Nakaoka. (Nak) I asked Nak if the hone would work with my straight razor and he had politely replied that it would. I am sure he picked out one for me that would do the job. The stone is clearly and fully described on the internet. The mine, the location, the stone strata (Suita) and the mine owner name/Miner are all given.

The hone is very hard indeed. When you hone on it, the surface gives up no slurry at all. The stone is also very slow to absorb water. I have a natural nagura rubbing stone and I can create a thin slurry with it, but it takes time and the slurry is the white nagura slurry. The clay element of the hone is a creamy yellow color but you need to lap the hone to release this slurry. The nagura doesn't do it. Lapping this stone is a slow process. It's not mud.

I used my best razor this morning. It was due for it's touch up and I did this with the new 10K Naniwa Chosera. To be honest, I think that that is all I needed to do. The Chosera puts a rasping tacky edge back on the blade in two passes. More than five passes is overkill. A good leather stropping will then smooth the edge to the satisfaction of most shavers.

But I was conscious of your earlier comments that the suita was too cheap to be a finishing hone. So I proceeded and honed twenty passes on the suita followed by fifty return strops on leather. The shave was as smooth as ever and I won't need to re hone that razor for a good month of daily useage. Normally, I would use chromium oxide on leather to get that type of smoothness. This morning I did not.

So I am now 100% sure the Suita is of a fine grit. I am not going to make claims as to what the grit level might be because I don't have the technical skill to determine it. But the shave off my suita hone was as smooth as a blade coming off CR OX. Smooth and satisfyingly close with no discomfort whatsoever.

This is not my first Japanese hone and whilst I might not be the most practised at honing, I am very experienced at trying many different types of hones and I certainly know the difference between a good hone and a bad hone and I would go so far as to say I also know the difference between a good hone and an exceptional hone.

The Chosera is a special synthetic hone and readily available. You will soon see many of the honing practitioners will be singing it's praises as a go to finishing hone. It's so efficient and time saving that they would be foolish not to. Mr average might not, because the hone is too expensive for touch ups and biannual rehone jobs.

The suita is a one off. It's different, it's a natural stone and its a little bit special. I need to play with mine for longer to get it nailed down, but it is very affordable and really good fun for anybody who enjoys this hobby. My post and review was designed to let other members like me know that this sort of hone opportunity is available.

You never know, but if they are smitten by the quality of these exceptional stones they may even save up to purchase one of yours.

Hey English, glad the Suita turned out to be a winner for you. I am not yet ready to break into the world of Japanese stones. There is so much to know and I am still evaluating my Eschers, Coticules, Thuringans, Nortons and Shaptons. Not to mention my Scotch hones. This HAD is as bad as RAD........ or as good depending on how you look at it I guess. :hmmm:

My initial comment wasn't meant to put you or anyone off either. It's just there have been a number of members buying the cheap hones, such as yours, and then coming to realize that they are not suitable for razors. My comment was meant to be more like, don't get your hopes up type comment.

On a small side note, if your getting a slurry made from the Nagura and not actually from the hone itself, that is another fine indicator of how coarse the stone is. Nagura make the slurry out of the main hone (normally). The slurry isn't part of a Nagura, generally speaking, so it is possible, when you honed your razor, it was the slurry from the Nagura that made the edge good.

Old school,

I think you are correct to make the warnings and people should heed them.

This hone was not for the feint of heart. I now know the base would need a lot more work to get to a usable layer.

It has taken a few hours of lapping work to get an all over smooth surface suitable for a razor, but it now works and works well with just good old water. I finished my lapping on a 1500 grit wet and dry paper used wet. The hone surface is smooth and even with no intrusions and nicely edged all around.

I'm just about to post some scratch pattern photo's and I think you will be surprised at the results.

I still don't understand what is going on with the slurry. But it is academic in a way as the hone works without slurry and with just water.

Anyway, I'm pleased with the final result and I agree I may have been lucky.

hmm I asked this same ebay seller if he had anything capable of straight razor honing and he never replied. how did you get in contact with him?

I sent him an ebay message.

I saw the item for sale.
Asked the question.
Bought the item.
Then got the reply.
Only then did he post it.
So I suppose if it had not been good for razors, he wouldn't have posted it and given me my money back.
I think he only does it as a hobby and so you have to give him time to reply.

Try again and see how you get on, but try the ebay route.

I have sent him messages at different times and not responded to. I thought he was mad because i said the eye of the hammer he sold me was crooked:)
you can also try writing to fujibato ( i tink that's it) .com

My shinden made for a noticeable difference over the couticule.

Kevin,

My shinden suita makes for a noticable difference over all the other finishing hones I own.

Which are in order of comfort
Yellow coticule
Green Escher type
Chromium Oxide
Naniwa Chosera
Shinden Suita

I've only had the Suita four days and it is a revelation. It puts just the smoothest edge on a razor without removing the sharpness.

The Chosera puts the best sharpness I've experienced and so quickly it's also a true revelation.

I can honestly say, with these two new (not inexpensive) hones I no longer need to use Cr Ox.

I think the next step for me at least is a 5000 grit Naniwa to remove the coticule out of the process. Then a 1000 grit Naniwa to maintain a consistency of approach and remove the wet and dry rather course but effective bevel setting approach.

I have not tried any Shapton hones but I have tried the likes of theThuringien, the Spyderco and the Chinese 12k and I have deliberately not put them in my list as although they are good, they are not in my opinion top flight in their grade.

Bottom line, I am happy to shave off all of the above hones, but I'm as entitled as the next man to my favorites. I very rarely change my mind on quality and I believe that I have just struck gold with the Chosera for sharpness and the Suita for smoothness.

But like all HAD sufferers, I will keep on looking.

English, are you honing on the Suita with water only or are you creating a slurry with a diamond plate for example? If you're using water only, is the Suita softer than an Asagi, then for those who know? For the harder Japanese polishing stones like an Asagi, isn't it customary to hone with slurry and some would argue depending on the particular hone slurry is essential?

Chris L

Chris,

I don't know the answers to your question I don't have an asagi and I didn't try the hone with it's own slurry as I don't have a diamond hone either. I only have one other no name very soft Japanese hone that will yield a slurry with ease.

The suita is very hard, it is slow to lap on the wet and dry. It creates a rich creamy clay slurry when it is being lapped. It's harder than a coticule for example, much harder.

If I rub the nagura stone on the hone, not a lot happens. Eventually, the nagura yields a slurry onto the hone and not vice versa. All this tells me is that both stone are very flat and the nagura is softer, which it is. I can make an indentation in my rubbing stone with my thumb, but I could sharpen my nails on the hone and can not dent it. Do you know, sharpening your nails on a hone is a pretty good indicator of grit size as you can feel how smooth the hone leaves the edge of your nail.

If the suita was not flat, you couldn't use it. You can see a little blackness in the water from the swarf as you hone and so you know it is working. It hones the edge very slowly. The hone tends to jerkiness if you press to hard and so you do have to hone lightly. You can feel the hone doing its work and you can tell when you reach the optimum point quite easily.

Don't know what else to say really, except that it works and it really surprised me. Pleasantly.

I very nearly gave up on this hone because I expect a hone to have a range with and without slurry, harder v's softer honing etc. This hone just polishes an already great edge.

I think if you were to go with diamond plate you might down grade the hardness at least a notch.

A tool can gouge the surface readily. so it is a lot softer than a novaculite. My initial impression was the suita was just a little harder than the piece of N-A I have, but that was a little short sighted. They are somewhat close, but the asagi is harder and finer.

I have a scratchy section with su that have swallowed up black swarf. I plan to scratch those out with some pointy ground edge tool thing, but i haven't seen damagae only sound. a few times i have wiped dryish slurry in the holes to float them out.

I caught a lucky auction getting mine for 25usd

The first honing i cheated the suita some with a heavy slurry, the finished dry-which may not have helped.

I rehoned the razor with water only on a fresh lap (shinden) about 6 hours later to shave a second pass- for me its going over the rough patches at any and all angles and getting all grizzle off my chin and lip- unstropped, it was a fairly clean shave with little trouble. while the cout. was very high feedback. it cut surely but just 1 pt below tugging

There are several vendors, particularly on ebay, that I consider to be best avoided. There also used to be a member vendor on this forum with whom I severely disagreed after he tried to gain access to my bank account. Regardless, it is my understanding that the public disparaging of vendors is not allowed in this forum.

Utopian is absolutely correct here which is unfortunate as there was some good info mixed in with the un-called for bashing of a e-bay Vendor...

If anyone wants to re-post the good info they are more then welcome to here...


The Mod Team

Hmmm. Since Jnats are getting popular here it seems, why don't we put up a sticky in the hones section about recommended vendors to buy from? This will avoid having to badmouth the other vendors in public & will ensure that people get good stones. Just an idea.

Or what about "Brands to avoid"? Gold Dollars got the boot, so why is this different?