Natural replacement for DMT 8K?

So... I have a DMT 1200 and think it's great. I have a DMT 8k and used to like it. The more I hone, and the better I get, the less I like that goddamn thing:

I DO like the fact that it cuts fast, but it really doesn't leave scratch marks like an 8k and it can gouge some of my harder razors, and that makes for more work on the finishing hones to clean up. Screw that. :gaah:

I would really like to get a natural stone to fill that slot, but I don't want to use my coticule with slurry since it dulls the edge considerably, and that seems a bit like a backwards step.(I have done it more than a few times, and I still eventually get a good edge, but I can't help but think it's a waste of time.)


Belgian blue with slurry sounds about right grit-wise, but there's that damn slurry dulling effect again...:rant:

Tam O Shanter perhaps? :thinking:

I got a chance to use someones Shaptons at the Mid-Mo get together, and they felt great. BUT, I would really like to have a natural.

I REALLY like my Nakayama from O_S, but he doesn't have any coarser stones on his site right now, so that's a no-go.

I also have a birthday coming up, so the wife is allowing me to spend some cash.:tu

Any suggestions gents? I am stuck.:shrug:

Don't use the slurry with the coticule and Belgian blue if you feel they(it) are(is) counterproductive.
And there you are with natural stones filling the slot. :rock:

We are here to help.:tu

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Originally Posted by Bruce

Don't use the slurry with the coticule and Belgian blue if you feel they(it) are(is) counterproductive.
And there you are with natural stones filling the slot. :rock:

We are here to help.:tu

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Well, I have a coticule and it's way too fine to go from 1200 without taking all day. I heard a belgian blue was too slow without slurry, hence my reluctance to purchase such a stone.

I've got a good solution that may be workable for both you and me.

I have an extra unused, unlapped NOS Tam that I bought from Coully. I paid $85 for it. I have no problem keeping it/no strong motivation for selling it right now.

I'm slightly more motivated to buy a D8EE. A new D8EE from Craftsman Studio would set me back $83.06 after shipping. It's good that your D8EE is broken in, but still, I likes my stuff new if I can help it. Priority mail each way for you and I would be a wash. A straight up trade......maybe sweeten the pot just a tad? Would you take a $10 and D8EE trade for my NOS Tam with box, slurry stone and completely unlapped/untouched state?

You can PM me with your thoughts and we can talk about that D8EE a bit more.

Chris L

you won't find a replacement for that diamond speed. i suggest you find something constructive to grind on over the whole surface some more, maybe a lot more ;0

there's always ceramic varieties to choose from : why you looking from diamond to natural?

probably some shobu, narutaki, etc that would suit that are not over the top $wise

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Originally Posted by kevint

you won't find a replacement for that diamond speed. i suggest you find something constructive to grind on over the whole surface some more, maybe a lot more ;0

there's always ceramic varieties to choose from : why you looking from diamond to natural?

probably some shobu, narutaki, etc that would suit that are not over the top $wise

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Yeah, diamond is faster, but that gets me into microchipping territory with harder razors in my stable.

I have a Spyderco set of hones, but I don't like the feel of em. They seem to dull down after a while and need refreshing. Plus they don't feel as good as naturals.

I have been lookin' at some shobu and narutaki stones, but I don't know much about em, and I don't want to get saddled with something that isn't going to work for razors due to inclusions or somesuch...

What is wrong with a Shapton? There I said it!:D

Later,
R

I haven't yet shaved off the sougoroh i got on ebay. that's a shobu stone. It is soft,pretty cheap. 20$ best offer:) got it. At first I didn't think much of it: it's homely, inexpensive, soft, as I said. Lately I have been sharpening a few knives on it and I'm starting to like it. I have no clue on the grit. but it does indeed cut and polish

I won't promise it's what you're looking for but it's an interesting stone. Ive been fairly sloppy with lapping- It makes a huge amount of mud and the black seems to get way down in there... I can almost make sense of the sellers description in that regard.

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Originally Posted by riooso

What is wrong with a Shapton? There I said it!:D

Later,
R

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Well.... I sure did like it... but I would really like a natural hone. I have a coticule that is awesome for the pre-final finish, and my new bestest finisher the Nakayama.

I just wanted something to go before the 1200 for aesthetic purposes.

I wants it, I needs it...

You've got sort of a tall order here: natural, not slow, but no slurry...

My feeling is give the belgian blue a shot. The blue-yellow sequence after dmt is in my experience very different from just yellow. The blue with slurry gets the scratches out in a hurry, and though it does dull the edge a bit, it doesn't dull it as much as yellow with heavy slurry. I think this has to do with less concentration of garnets in the blue...

Then when you go the yellow, your DMT scratches are already out and your heavy work is done, and you can use a very light slurry with the coticule. The grabby edge comes back in a hurry. Then another 30 or so laps with just water and you're in business.

The whole process is very quick indeed. As in, 50 or so laps on blue w/slurry, 30 or so on yellow with light slurry, 30 with plain water.

The blue is cheap, has a lovely feel, is a nice match for your coticule, and works great on kitchen knives.

The other option is the Dalmore Blue, but those are a little harder to come by. I have a 6x2 Dalmore Blue/Dalmore Yellow combo that I'll be putting up for sale here pretty soon, but I'm not sure just when, and frankly a belgian blue of that size will be cheaper.

Well... I am not dead set against something slow... I know nothing is going to rival the diamond's speed.

I am looking harder at Howards 8" belgian blue...

A bunch of guys around here bought some Dragon's tongue hones, but last time I checked that thread, few had responded with results or comparisons. That makes me wonder.


A few guys have some Tam O Shanter's, and those had piqued my interest over the last few months, but they are very hard to find.


Dalmore blue? I haven't heard anything about em. How do they compare to a belgian blue: speed wise and polishing-wise?

Good morning Joe. The only stone that comes close to the DMT 8K for speed is the Shapton 8K. For $80 it seems like a bargain to me. Shapton GlassStone Waterstones I sold my DMT 8K and my Norton 4K X 8K on the BST when I got my Shaptons.

bj

I'm getting a lot of joy out of using a Belgian Blue right now. I really recommend it. The slurry issue is a strange one, I'll admit. Coming off a DMT1200, I'm finding the best results by using slurry and a little pressure for ~50 laps on the Belgian Blue, followed by slurry and no pressure for ~50. Then polish with no slurry (water only) and no pressure for ~50 and if you really want a smooth finish follow that with water-only on a coticule.

Now here's the interesting thing: you don't get edges that pop those hairs on the HHT, but shave with it and it's close to the smoothest shave I've had, with zero irritation and just as close. With a Norton combo plus diamond paste to finish I was getting scary sharp edges and close shaves, but irritated skin.

I would go for the Tam that Chris offered. I have found mine to be a very effective hone. When I am in the Scotch hone mode I use a Dalmore Blue followed by a Tam with slurry and then the Tam with water only. I finish on a Blue/Green Escher as I haven't gotten a Water of Ayr yet. I like a Belgian Blue too but the Tam is far more scarce. You can always get a blue.

I PM'ed Chris L about the trade possibility already.

I like the sound of the Tam... but I don't want to give him a possibly messed up DMT 8k. No need to delve into the specifics on it, but I'm not comfortable trading a perfectly good Tam for a hone I don't like.

Bad karma and all that, plus I would just feel guilty if it really WAS messed up. Not that it is, but you never know...:shrug:

I am a big fan of the yellow belgian coticule, you can shave off that stone with a good stropping prior to the shave, but using the escher right after the yellow gives you that feeling like your wiping the lather off, you dont even feel the shave!

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I am a big fan of the yellow belgian coticule, you can shave off that stone with a good stropping prior to the shave, but using the escher right after the yellow gives you that feeling like your wiping the lather off, you dont even feel the shave!

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But I wants a new hone!! I NEEDS a new hone. Don't you see? This new one will surely be the one to put me over the top save-wise. This will be the last hone I ever need....seriously.


Edit: I have talked to Chris L about the Tam and Dragon's tongue hones: he feels they are finer than a belgian blue, and that's not really the direction I am wanting to go right now...yet. I emailed Howard and am going to look into a nice big belgian blue...for now. I think. Maybe.

Quick update, I am going with an 8"x3" belgian blue from Howard. For now....

Must. Fight. HAD.:jedi:Must...be...STRONG...

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Originally Posted by joke1176

Must. Fight. HAD.:jedi:Must...be...STRONG...

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"Good luck with that!" He said with a sinister grin!

You're going to like that 8"x3" Belgian Blue. I have one and use it a lot.

I recently started using it for a purpose other than honing: I've been finish lapping my stones on the Belgian Blue. Nice!!! The stiction is a huge factor, but I like the smooth results that it gives to the surfaces of my other natural stones (I have not tried it on my Shaptons) that I'm probably going to lap the bottom side of my Belgian Blue and score some diamond pattern into the surface which should reduce the stiction and make for a great 4000 +/- grit lapping stone.

I bought some carbide tile hacksaw blades (inexpensive) that rather than having teeth, it's like a thick wire with abrasive bonded to it. It should cut the bottom of my belgian blue easily. I'll just score the surface down to maybe 1/8".

I'll post pics and results when done.

Chris L

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris L

You're going to like that 8"x3" Belgian Blue. I have one and use it a lot.

I recently started using it for a purpose other than honing: I've been finish lapping my stones on the Belgian Blue. Nice!!! The stiction is a huge factor, but I like the smooth results that it gives to the surfaces of my other natural stones (I have not tried it on my Shaptons) that I'm probably going to lap the bottom side of my Belgian Blue and score some diamond pattern into the surface which should reduce the stiction and make for a great 4000 +/- grit lapping stone.

I bought some carbide tile hacksaw blades (inexpensive) that rather than having teeth, it's like a thick wire with abrasive bonded to it. It should cut the bottom of my belgian blue easily. I'll just score the surface down to maybe 1/8".

I'll post pics and results when done.

Chris L

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That's a cool idea right there. I look forward to the pics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris L

You're going to like that 8"x3" Belgian Blue. I have one and use it a lot.

I recently started using it for a purpose other than honing: I've been finish lapping my stones on the Belgian Blue. Nice!!! The stiction is a huge factor, but I like the smooth results that it gives to the surfaces of my other natural stones (I have not tried it on my Shaptons) that I'm probably going to lap the bottom side of my Belgian Blue and score some diamond pattern into the surface which should reduce the stiction and make for a great 4000 +/- grit lapping stone.

I bought some carbide tile hacksaw blades (inexpensive) that rather than having teeth, it's like a thick wire with abrasive bonded to it. It should cut the bottom of my belgian blue easily. I'll just score the surface down to maybe 1/8".

I'll post pics and results when done.

Chris L

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I've been thinking about cutting a thin stone with one of those blades; but you Mr. Chris really do need to sit down for a consultation to address your problem;):gl:

Belgian stones are getting harder to get. You may not always be able to get a blue! Select grade coticules may not always be available either. The belgians told me, in detail, about the new heavy equipment they've had to acquire in order go deeper to get at the coticule. The pumps are also barely keeping up with the water flow. The price of petrol is also a big factor there as cranes and bulldozers and pumps drink a lot of it. There will be a major price increase in Jan 09 they tell me.

Chris,
Interesting use for a belgian blue. Be careful about the scoring of the bottom of the blue as it could weaken the stone, cause delamination, and lead to cracks and spalling. BTW, when is the Minnesota Get Together? I have to mail you out that stone for the raffle.

Howard

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Originally Posted by Howard

Chris,
Interesting use for a belgian blue. Be careful about the scoring of the bottom of the blue as it could weaken the stone, cause delamination, and lead to cracks and spalling. BTW, when is the Minnesota Get Together? I have to mail you out that stone for the raffle.

Howard

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Hi Howard:

The MN Get Together is on Saturday November 15th, 8 days away. If you need my address again, let me know and I'll send it to you. Thank again, Howard!

Chris L

Quick update: I have used the Belgian Blue with the DMT 1200, coticule and Nakayama I have, to restore 4-5 razors and re-sharpen 7-8 more.

What a peculiar, but great, stone!

I have used it with medium and light slurry in varying places in the progression above and it works exactly as I hoped it would. It really refines the grit marks without significantly dulling the bevel.

First off, Howard shipped it fast and safe. Excellent job overall.

It does have a few inclusions, but in an 8"x3" stone, it's bound to happen, and they have no negative impact on honing.

One issue I have with this stone:

Every time I use it, I smell grape kool aid... I know it's in my head, but that's pretty weird. I'm not complaining, I just thought I would share that with everyone. :thinking: