Setting a bevel on a Norton 4K

OK then, what gives?

I have tried twice now but with very little success.

I bought a beautiful Wade and Butcher Smiling wedge from AaronX a while back. Its a gorgeous razor and I cant wait to try it properly. However when I got it it wasnt honed in any way. No bevel, nothing. Now he told me it would be like this so I was neither surprised nor let down. I understood that it was up to me to set the bevel.

So I took it to my Norton Combo. I only have 2 hones; a Norton combo and a japanese natural finishing stone. No problem I thought. I took it to the 4K side. I did alot of work on it and eventually saw what appeared to me to be a bevel. Great! I thought, and turned the hone over to work on the 8K. Many passes on that and its looking good. I even have a look at it under my microscope and it looks good. The fact that I dont know what I should be looking for is of no hinderence to me here. I wiped it down and finished it on the japanese hone. After much work and then some careful stropping I am pleased with how it looks. It appears to me to be an excellent bevel!

Then I do some tests on it. It is terrible. :rant:

Seriously, it doesnt pass HHT, TNT, TPT and if you think i'm putting it near my face think again! I wouldnt use this thing for anything! I mean it couldnt open a letter and I doubt it would successfully spread butter!

AAAAAAAARGH!!!

OK I think. Time to calm down, go back to basics and try again. What could be wrong? I think hard and ask around on the chat. General consensus is that I should do a felt tip test. I will do that but first I will work on my hone. It appears to have alot of crap embedded in it. Time to lap it.

Lapping took me a while. Alot of stuff to remove. However now it looks as it did when I first got it. Bright white on one side, bright yellow on the other. I clean it off, soak the hone in clean water and get the W+B.

This time I decide to stay on the 4K until I can start to feel SOME kind of edge. SOME sort of sharpness. Surely there should be something? I start at it and oddly the hone very quickly gets dirty again. Not as dirty as it was before but there remains a marked difference. It appears the discolourisation is caused by the metal being removed from the W+B. I take this to be a good sign.

However, after honing for an hour on the 4K side and still getting nothing I am beginning to lose the will to live. This is never a good thing when one is holding a straight razor. Perhaps fortunately for me I doubt if it got so bad that I wanted to top myself using the razor I doubt it would be up to the job. I swer, there is a clear and obvious angle on the edge so I presume that is the bevel. But I can run my fingertip vigourously along the edge and get nothing more than a hot finger.

What is doing wrong here? :rant:Should I take it to some 1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper? I really dont want to send it away. I need to be able to learn to do this myself.

Somebody please help before I do something I regret. :( :chop:

Wedges are a bear to hone, one question??? did you tape the spine????
You can discuss this till the cows come home, but setting a bevel on a W&B wedge on a 4k is going to take TIME and a ton of metal off.... Personally I would rather be taking that metal off the edge where it will do some good rather than off the spine where it does absolutely nothing for you but clog up the stone.....

Now if you did tape the spine then you just have a few hours of solid honing to go :cry:
and yes you have the right idea stay on that 4k until you have an edge from heel to toe....

Hi Glen

Initially I was taping the spine yes using heavy duty masking tape. However the tape kept getting rubbed off. The stickiness of the tape would catch on the hone. It meant that I couldnt actually move the damn razor along the hone.

So for about half the time I was using tape and half of it I havent. This will change things I know, but what else can I do? :cry:

Plastic electrical tape is what you need....
It will not hurt to add tape, the 3M brand is the most consistent I have found but any will work....

Sorry I should have been clear. It is plastic electrical tape. Not the paper masking tape I am now thinking of. :gaah:

Is the tape wearing out in just one spot on the spine????

Not wearing out. The edges of the tape fray up. They are sticky and when they get pulled back they catch on the hone. This would be easier to show you rather than describe. But its 1.30am atm and i'm off to sleep. Maybe I could show you somehow some other time. Maybe i'll try making a Youtube video. :hmmm:

Sandy - I use the plastic electrical tape as it tends to stay down and not fray like the stuff that looks like it has fibres in it.

Even on a Norton a wedge can take a while. I like to use analogy (and double entendre, but that is another story) wherever possible. A sculptor will whack away rock with a big hammer and chisel until she gets close to the general shape she is after. Then she will go more carefully and/or use finer tools.

On a wedge (or any razor for that matter, it is just more obvious on a wedge) I feel it does not matter how you remove the metal when heading toward the bevel being created. So I tend to hone in circles, use a bit of pressure, etc until the bevel gets close (thumb nail test is my favourite for that). Once I am close, then I start using a more "proper" technique. That metal has to go anyway - who cares how you got rid of it?

That is not to say you should not be careful. All I am saying is that you don't have to go down, flip, up, flip, down, flip, up, flip...... with the pressure of a feather on the wind for 5 hours on a bread-knifed wedge, or whatever, to get the bevel created.

James.

I have a wedge type razor that I ground the edge completely away on a wheel and made it square. I have spent several (5-7) hours honing, and am just now starting to shave arm hairs. I think you should get a 220 or 1000 grit Norton, that will reduce the time, and just keep at it.

I kind of disagree on the suggestion of the 220 Norton. I have one and have occasionally used it on completely buggered blades but the thing is so soft that I think I actually make faster progress on the Norton 1000. I really should get a DMT 1200 for bevel setting but I already have a DMT 325 and a DMT 220 and I'd rather not spend 60 bucks on yet another DMT. I definitely will get one for bevel setting after I wear out my Norton 1000 in a couple more years.

Cheers guys for all this input. I'll go through it a bit at a time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Sandy - I use the plastic electrical tape as it tends to stay down and not fray like the stuff that looks like it has fibres in it.

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YES! Yes! Thats EXACTLY the stuff I have! It looks like it has something woven into it. I presumed it would be better- like it had better grip. But it seems this is the wrong stuff? Thats fine. Live and learn ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

On a wedge (or any razor for that matter, it is just more obvious on a wedge) I feel it does not matter how you remove the metal when heading toward the bevel being created. So I tend to hone in circles, use a bit of pressure, etc until the bevel gets close....... That is not to say you should not be careful. All I am saying is that you don't have to go down, flip, up, flip, down, flip, up, flip...... with the pressure of a feather on the wind for 5 hours on a bread-knifed wedge, or whatever, to get the bevel created.

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Thank GOD! I had been wondering whether I had to keep doing that. I was getting so impatient with it and wanted to take a side at a time approach. As in up, down, up, down, up, down........ flip..... up, down, up, down...... You get the idea? Would that would that work? Would that be appropriate?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

I think you should get a 220 or 1000 grit Norton, that will reduce the time, and just keep at it.

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I am certain that I do want to get another hone. However I believe if I were to get anything else it would be coticles. Everyone is always going on about them and I believe I made the wrong decision from the start in getting a Norton instead of a belgian blue and a yellow coticle. :gaah:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I really should get a DMT 1200 for bevel setting but I already have a DMT 325 and a DMT 220 and I'd rather not spend 60 bucks on yet another DMT. I definitely will get one for bevel setting after I wear out my Norton 1000 in a couple more years.

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With Christmas looming buying anything for me is defenitely out. Perhaps in the new year.


Thanks very much guys. To all of you. :tu

Novice honer here (I have had a string of successes in the past few evenings though).

I messed around with the Norton 220 and 1k for quite a while trying to get some eBay razors up to speed. Maybe it's just me, but I've gotten the impression from using them that it's easier to make a bowl out of those stones than it is to set a bevel with one. Keeping them flat was eating up a lot of time (I went to a granite slab and sandpaper as the flattening stone was giving them domes).

Part of that may be just part of the necessary offering to Odin in exchange for learning the skill of honing.

I just started using a DMT fine stone that I picked up locally (red plastic brick with a perforated steel mesh over the top) and bam! A string of successes. I build a slight wire edge with it, bust that off, then give it a dozen'ish more very gentle strokes before doing the same on the 4k before getting into the smooth stones. They are all now sharp or at least very close.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sidneykidney

.....

YES! Yes! Thats EXACTLY the stuff I have! It looks like it has something woven into it. I presumed it would be better- like it had better grip. But it seems this is the wrong stuff? Thats fine. Live and learn ;)

Thank GOD! I had been wondering whether I had to keep doing that. I was getting so impatient with it and wanted to take a side at a time approach. As in up, down, up, down, up, down........ flip..... up, down, up, down...... You get the idea? Would that would that work? Would that be appropriate?

I am certain that I do want to get another hone. However I believe if I were to get anything else it would be coticles. Everyone is always going on about them and I believe I made the wrong decision from the start in getting a Norton instead of a belgian blue and a yellow coticle. :gaah:

With Christmas looming buying anything for me is defenitely out. Perhaps in the new year.

Thanks very much guys. To all of you. :tu

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Well, I have always had pretty good success with the plastic type electrical tape. I often use two layers on a wedge to speed things up a bit. You do have to watch it on coarser grits because it does wear out, but that is no biggie if you are careful.

A few strokes on each side or whatever before you flip is not going to kill the razor - just be careful and do it evenly on both sides. You don't want to create an uneven or off-center bevel if it can be avoided. As long as you match what you do equally on both sides, it should be fine.

I have not had a lot of experience with my Belgian combo yet, but from what little I have had I'd say it is a good idea to get them if you can afford it. However, they are not as fast (as far as I can tell) as my Norton. You will still need a bevel setter, for sure.

James.

If I tape the spine of a razor I always use Polyurethane "helicopter" tape. Its clear and abrasion resistant and is available in several different thicknesses. I use the .008" thick.

I am currently working on a W&B wedge. Using a 2K Shapton Glass stone I probably have at least 6 hours into getting the bevel set. You have to remember these blades are over a hundred years old-and maybe haven't been honed CORRECTLY since they were NEW. W&B steel is good stuff and SLOW is BETTER. Its not a race. Relax-have some patience.

Setting the bevel IS the most IMPORTANT step in honing. Screw the bevel up and you will never be satisfied with the edge. Personally I'd go more agressive than a 4K-but don't be tempted to go down to far just to speed up the process. Restoring razors takes patience and ALOT of time. HASTE MAKES WASTE!:rolleyes:

I got the impression that the tape is not wearing out so much as the edge catching and rolling up. Don't most wedges have just a little concavity to the blade? Are you using the full width of the tape? or are you cutting it into thinner strips?

OK lets see if I can answer some questions. The tape I was using WAS being cut into smaller strips as the sheer width of the tap as it was would have covered both sides of the razor completely. The tape wasnt wearing out, it was catching on the hone and sticking. I WISH I could use something more aggressive than a 4K grit but unless its wet/dry sandpaper I dont have anything like that.

I went looking for more tape today but couldnt find anything more suitable. There is masking tape (kinda paper-like on the surface, not at all suitable), Heavy duty double-sided (I have some already and know its not appropriate), The stuff I got with fibres in it that doesnt work, regular sellotape and what I think I will try next....

... parcel tape. Two or three layers of it.

We'll see what happens.

I would look up circle honing and try it out if you stick with the 4K for setting the bevel.

As far as tape 1/2 inch black electrical tape is what I always use, and I have worn through it many a time working on a tough razors though never had the problem you seem to.

If you have a good flat surface, polished granite etc. You might give 1000 grit wet dry a shot, just be careful 1000 grit sandpaper is fast and poor technique can do a lot of damage fast.

Hey all!

Maybe it's time to get a lower grit stone? The lower the grit the faster you remove that pesky metal and can set a smooth bevel and then do the 4k - 8k pyramid - sound good to any one?

=)

Cubed as I have said already I would love a new stone. But christmas is coming and I am skint. I havent got a job. So no chance of a new stone sadly. :nono:

Sandy

Last year I tried to set a bevel on a wedge 8/8 (actually, a Chinese vintage razor, the ones that look like a mini hatchet) using Norton 4k. After 30 minutes I could tell this was like flogging a dead horse. I put it away into storage.

Last month I bought myself a DMT1200. Took out the old Chinese hatchet, did some heavy honing on it for 30 mins again and this time managed to set the bevel.

A DMT1200 will set you back about £50. If your budget doesn't run to that, definitely go the wet & dry route.

Were I in this circumstance, I'd start with the hones I use on my edged tools, such as a Norton Giant India combination that I use for chisels and plane irons. I realize that this is not the marvel hone for a carpenter's tools as you would see used by the master craftsmen who write the books or offer tutorials on DVD, but it does work for my on the job tools. And does a bang up job on knives for my deer hunting relatives and friends who bring their knives to me, wondering if I could touch them up for this year's hunt.

I have no idea what the grit rating is on this artificial, but the coarse side is fairly coarse and the fine side is maybe equivalent to a 882 - 1097 grit real hone ;)

Once you get down to a nice even thumbnail grab, then you can go on to the real hones for the final polish. Can you get 3M #33 vinyl electrical tape (10,000 volts per wrap) in the UK? That, or something very like it, is what us Yanks are referring to.

good luck

I use 1000 & 2000 grit wet/dry sandpaper to set the bevel, then I take the blade to the stones.

I'm no honemeister by any stretch ... but it works.

Because it seems to be the fashion at the moment to go way off topic in threads to one topic in particular, and because nobody has yet said anything about it in this thread (and because its originally a thread started by me)....

.... can I just say I for one am going to be watching VERY carefully what changes Obama makes to the gun laws in the state *I* live in! In fact I think I may rush out and by two dozen fully automatic weapons from Wal Mart right now!

:gaah: :gth

***Sarcasm alarm*** ";"

Spend the money on a DMT1200 instead. You'll kill way more hairs with it than you can with a gun.

So THATS where i've been going wrong! ";"