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Sometimes, if I'm not careful, I find a section of the edge that has a different bevel on it. It's usually less than half an inch wide and sometimes it has a chip in it. I think this comes from the fact that most of my hones are narrower that my razor is long and I include part of the shoulder of the razor in the pass. Does anybody else do this, too? What do you do about it, prevention wise? Do you grind/hone the shoulder down some?
It happened to the razor I was honing today, but it has happened before. I'm pretty sure my hones are flat as I was able to fix the edge after I caught my mistake. I lap them before every use, too. Pencil grids and all. Out of the 6 or 7 I have in my progression, I only have one natural stone, and it's the biggest one I have. Most of them are 2 or 2 1/2 in wide. I'm pretty sure it's my technique. I think I have it narrowed down to what the problem is-I think I'm placing the razor too far over the hone to where the shoulder is touching the hone and the edge of the razor is touching the opposite edge of the hone, creating 2 points of contact, instead of having the blade lie flat on the surface of the stone. When I start the 'x pattern', the edge of the hone cuts a grove in the blade that's usually 1/2 an inch long at most. And depending on how smooth the edge is, it takes out a chip sometimes. I can see the light reflecting off part of the edge at one angle. When I rotate the blade a little I can see where the bevel is at a different angle at a different spot along the edge (the 1/2 in portion). I probably shouldn't watch TV when I'm doing this, but that's just the way it goes.
So, there's the problem. Any ideas on how to avoid this altogether? Other than pay more attention? Does anybody else have this problem/heard of this problem? I only have a handful of razors I'm working with, so a custom adjustment on 3 or 4 razors wouldn't be a problem for me. Does anybody grind or hone down the shoulder a bit to avoid this situation?
I think beveling the edges would only avoid the chipping, but not the portion at a different bevel. But that would only remedy the symptom of a symptom of the problem that is I put the shoulder of the razor on the hone while I'm not paying attention and still move it down the hone on those 2 points of contact-the one on the shoulder and the other on the other side of the hone. I plan on keeping the few razors I have indefinitely. So, I really don't mind grinding the shoulder down some to avoid this if I have to because it will probably happen again, whether I like it or not.
Is this unheard of? Does everybody else just fix the edge and move on? Or is there something else I could do to prevent this?
Without pics, it's only a guess, but I think I know what you are talking about.
Keep a close eye on the angle as you make passes.
Example: if your heel is leading by 25-30d on rough passes, and you make finish passes at 5-10d you might end up with the problem you describe.
I have had the "grinding the shoulder down, double bevel on part of the blade problem", and maintaining a consistent heel leading angle got rid of it.
And yes, narrow hones can be harder to use, so it may be that you are lifting the heel during your stroke also.
If I could get all of the honing done before I got distracted, I wouldn't have this problem. It's just that shows like prototype this have giant boxing robots that catch my eye. I'll try and get a picture next time it happens.
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Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
Yeah, post some pics of those giant boxing robots, I wanna see that! :jedi:
I meant pics of the razor, but I see that you catch my drift about getting distracted. Anyway, you can see the episode on the internet on the discovery channels site if you want to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
And does that ever SUCK when you do something dumb during finish passes... sigh, back to the bevel setting stage!
After you do that a few times, you learn to pay attention a bit more.
Maybe I'm just thinking out loud then. Those shoulderless blades are looking better and better...
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
I don't know about that. Just maintain a consistent angle and you will be fine. :gl:
But even with a shoulderless blade, eventually the spine wear will become uneven as you can't start the pass at the EXACT spot every time. And if you have narrow hones you will get a small portion of the blade with a funny bevel. If you have a large hone, then eventually the point of the razor will be considerably smaller as the years go by, because of the same reason. Or is it not very noticeable?
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Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
AHA! if you make passes with the heel leading, and the heel starts on the hone, it won't be a problem.
Nobody is precise enough to start at the EXACT place on the shoulder so you will get a gradual, smooth wear-transition from shoulder to spine...So smooth, you won't have that little double bevel problem you are talking about, as the razor's heel will wear down first (if that makes sense).
Actually, I have had a similar issue using DMT's and back/forth passes during roughing a razor in. Easy to do, and easy to remedy if you catch it in time.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...7-img-0024.jpghttp://straightrazorpalace.com/E:\DCIM\100CANON
Here's a picture that shows the size of the hones I have. Hope you can see it.
From the picture I would say you need to round the edges of your hones. A sharp edge on a hone can micro chip the blade. Also if I am not mistaken your blade looks like it may have a bit of a frown starting. Check out some of the honing videos and work on your technique. A frown can come from too much pressure on the center of the blade. What kind of stones are those ?
I think the frown is just the way it's sitting on the desk. It's pretty straight when I look at it. One's an india oilstone froma gun show somewhere and the other two are razor edge stones. I flatten them with a dmt.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but.........:ziplip:
First chuck the India stone right out of your Razor rotation it is far coarser than a thousand grit. If the India stone isn't in the one in the middle chuck that one out too, Its far to coarse to be touching a razor. :medvl:
What is the grit level of the third hone? I hate to say it but I can't find any stones of the "Razor Edge" brand that are fine enough for doing anything finer than the roughest of nick removal on a straight razor.:thinking:
Once we have decent equipment to work with you might make progress with solving your razors problems.:shrug:
I think the one on the left may be in the neighborhood of 1000 grit. It looks pretty smooth. the one in the middle is too coarse for a razor. As everyone else said, the edges need to be rounded.
I've since fixed the problem with the edge, with these hones no less. That's why I don't have a picture of it. I guess I could go back and do it on purpose but it might happen the next time I get around to honing, anyway. It's not a pressing issue. They work fine for me. I'm not sure why I would want to get rid of them. In fact, here's why I happen to like them...
The course gray one cuts slowly and is easy to lap. It's not as course as the dmt 600? grit hone I got. Much smoother too. Then the orange one. This stone is very hard and wore down both of my dmts some, making both much less harsh. Other than the missing corners, this stone is fine. It was hard to lap at first because of the hardness, but I don't have to hardly lap it at all anymore. It cuts fast enough with or without water on it. In fact all three of these work better without water. The orange one smooths the edge after the rougher grits. Then the finer gray one will put a mirror shine on the edge. It gets the edge close enough to where it needs to be for me to use my shapton pro 12000 without any issues and relatively little time to polish it up. No matter how I look at it, they work for me and I shave everyday with the razors I use them to hone with. One day I would like to get something to magnify the edge and see how they do, but I don't see it as necessary at this point.
Refine the technique you're using. I would definitely NOT recommend grinding the shoulder down. You might also try honing the length of the razor i.e. about 20 degrees off of straight along the edge. The 20 deg is because of the shoulder. Some razors, when honed into the edge will develop microchips and that's why, with some razors, I don't hone into the edge but more along the edge. You'll see this technique in my forthcoming DVD on honing razors with Shaptons. It stars myself and Harrelson Stanley.
When you hone, hone. Don't watch tv, grasshopper :)
My main advise is to round the edges of the stone, because that will hurt your edge badly otherwise.
That, and practising without distractions. I always sit at the kitchen table, with some music on to prevent me from starting to listen to the background noise of the tv in the living room.
If I work on a restoration project or on honing someone else's razor, I feel it deserves my complete attention in order to do the best I can. And if I don't feel like concentrating on the work, I put it away to prevent myself from doing a bad job or ruining a razor.
CC,
I wouldn't recommend honing in front of the TV as your full attention isn't on what you're doing. If I were honing last night when the Steelers made that final touchdown, I'm sure I might have cut a finger off. Honing razors is EXTREME HONING. You're dealing with an edge less than .001" thick. At that level, a piece of abrasive 1/100" high will be a speed bump you might not feel if your mind and fingers aren't working together AND it could result in edge chipping. One of the reasons I love to hone is it's so meditative and it calms me down to do it. The Zen of Shaving.
Also, if you hone while holding the hone in one hand (I don't, but some do) then not paying attention will cause you to slice away a neat layer of flesh when your fingers accidentally rise above the honing surface.
I hold them in my hand and find it uncomfortable after a while because I can't move them around. It kinda helps me concentrate on honing, though.
On a different note, I contacted the customer service of the people who make the gray ones and they said the course one is 120 grit and the fine one is 900. This is somewhat confusing to me because the edge they put on the razor is so much smoother than the grits of the dmts. And I can go to the shapton without any problem. So, I take a closer look at all my hones to start researching and figuring out what the grits could be, and I'll be danged if the orange india stone isn't a norton. I couldn't tell what the label on it said until I really got a better look at it. It had another hone attached to the other side at one point in time. It was dark in color - gray or black. Looking at norton's site, it's a bit harder than the waterstones. knifecenter says norton impregnates their oilstones with oil before they ship them out? I'm still looking for the grit of it.
Looking at other posts here at srp, it might be a 4k or better. Maybe it cuts fast because I don't use it with oil?
Here is Nortons catalog In it the finest India stone they have is rated at 600 grit and it is the same color as your stone Or 22.0 microns in particle size.
Thats why we are saying your hones are too rough. Most guy here go finer than 1 micron in their sharpening, and many go as fin as 0.25 microns.
Even after clunking my razor on a faucet it doesn't get down to a stone in this category.
Oil stones should always be used with oil, you might be getting results not in line with what is expected from a stone of that type because it is clogged and therefore not cutting to its potential.
Norton impregnates their oilstones with a petroleum product that keeps the oil on the top from soaking in, thus keeping the swarf completely on top of the stone and suspended in the honing oil you add so that the stone remains pure and unclogged.
In a Normal oilstone honing progression it would be common to go from a extra fin India stone to a hard Arkansas or to use a soft Arkansas stone in place of the extra fine India stone. In fact for my kitchen knifes I use an oilstone progression starting at a fine India stone for blemish removal then moving to a soft Arkansas then to a hard white Arkansas stone for a finish, I don't go any finer with these implements as I don't think they need it, but for a razor I would start at the Hard white then move to a Black surgical and finish on a Translucent Arkansas if I wanted an all oilstone route.
All were originally acquired for use on knives. Maybe I've mistaken the slow-cutting action and smoothness of them for higher grit. Is it possible to get different results from a hone if you lap them with different grits? The particles might start off at 22 microns, but wouldn't those be worn down some with lapping?
What can I say, if it works to you, nothing can dissuade you. I would not allow any of my razors touch any of these hones, but that's just me. Razors aren't terribly expensive, which is good since in about a year you'll probably have to replace that #105. Considering this and that it's your razor, why not try what you're thinking about grinding down the shoulder and see if that helps. I would normally advise against, but there's only one thing that'll convince you, and I'm all for experimentation, especially with razors that are already abused.
Other than that, almost all of the hones I use are less than 2" wide and I've never had your problem. But I tried to follow the recommendations of people who are very good at honing - even with that it took me quite some time and I can't imagine how much longer would've been if I had taken your approach.
I already said about not touching your hones, but I'll add that I will not let razor that you've honed touch my face before I've looked at the edge under magnification - what you're describing sounds just way too crazy.
The good news is that it all works for you, but be sure not to give advice to any newbies, as your methods seem to be very unique and probably work for you only.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
I appreciate all the input. This seems to be a one stop shop for answers about my hones. A recurring theme here seems to be to not put the shoulder of the blade on the hone. There's no substitue for bad technique, which I have plenty of.
I've read in a bunch of different places about rounding the corners off of them, in this thread and others. This is just to knock the corners off, right? Or should there be a substantial area all along the edge missing?
Thanks for the link to the norton catalog. I have to guess at which grade of stone it is because some of the lettering/stamp on the side is worn off, but I think it is the 'fine' grit because of the combos norton sells their oilstones in. Like I said, it had another stone attached to the other side at one point.
I understand that the tools I have aren't in line with the advice given out here on this site, but a better understanding of why they work is what I'm shooting for. I appreciate that you all are trying to help with the limited information I can give you.
The gray stones are somewhat soft. They lap quickly and give off a fine powder. Could it be that during honing this same phenomenon is happening at a much smaller scale?
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Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
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You mentioned the 105...I'm going to venture out on a limb and guess that's the razor in the picture you're talking about. That was gifted to me by my father, but I don't know much about it other than it's a stainless steel dovo from the factory. It says on the blade that it's ice tempered-that means the steel was quenched with something really cold, right? It's got what I guess is acid etching on the blade that looks like a bunch of swirls. Is that what it is? When I first got it I stropped it a little and noticed that the bevel was chipped right around the area where the swirl pattern met the bevel. The chip came out and I haven't had any problems with it since, but can I expect more chipping because of the etching?
Well, I got a pretty full beard. It's like sandpaper when it's just stubble. I bought a razor from a guy here at srp that was sold as shave ready, and it was sharp. I've used feather de blades before, too. I've gotten close, comfortable shaves with both of those. No complaints from me. The blades I hone are not as sharp as a de blade or as sharp as that de-fi blade I bought, but it is sharp enough to get me at least bbs on most of my face after an atg pass. I have an alum block I use sometimes and I hardly get irritation on my cheeks. I'm pretty sure I still have a long way to go with shaving technique.
Those three hones are the ones I use before the 12k. I got a dmt - course? I think it said it was around 600 grit. I got it to lap those 3 in the picture. It did not work as I thought it would and I went for the next dmt, which I think was in the neighborhood of 300 grit. I also got some 3m wet/dry paper and a piece of glass. I got the 40 micron and the .5 micron sheets, but I really don't use them. I also have a norton flattening stone, but I've just about worn it out trying to keep it flat. I think it's around 220? Now, knowing that the norton flattening stone is the grit that it is, I have a hard time beleiving that the course gray stone I got is anywhere near that grit, unless a different type of stone at the same grit makes a considerably different scratch pattern?
Then again, this is all from me looking at it with indoor lighting with the naked eye.
Well if it is good enough for you I guess it is good enough. :shrug: The way I am wired I want to get to the point where I can get my razor as sharp as the sharpest I have ever gotten from any honemiester. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
I think I see where you are having a hard time here. This might help you out.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycliff200843
A Little Bit About Hone Construction and Grit size
Lets start off with sandpaper as it is the simplest abrasive surface used on razors. Sandpaper is just a grit glued to paper (or plastic film). Almost every grain of grit on the sandpaper will be exactly the same size and that size is most often marked on the back. This grit is also made up of only the kind of particle that does the cutting. This gives us a baseline for looking at stones. This is only so helpful however because sandpaper at more than about 400 grit is just varying degrees of smooth to the touch.
A honing stone is made very differently. They are made up of both cutting particles and other particles that hold them together. These other particles, called the matrix, have nothing to do with the cutting action or grit size of the stone. The Norton Flattening stone for instance is made up of a bunch of cutting particles the same size as on 220 grit sandpaper plus A bunch of larger particles that are to soft to cut but act to hold the stone together. In this case they use such big particles to hold the stone together (the matrix) to allow the mud from the lapped stones to wash into the gaps keeping the cutting particles exposed to the stone being lapped so it isn't just sliding around on its own sludge. Your hone, made for sharpening knives has the same size grit in a much finer matrix. This is because the knife must slide along this matrix while the cutting particles hit the edge, if the matrix were bigger it would bounce rather than slide along the hone.
This is why you can't look at a hone and know for sure its grit. Though with experience you will recognize the different matrices in common usage with different grit stones, and this will allow you to put hones in a certain ballpark at a glance.
Just my 2 cents here:
Those Dovo #105's are capable of a wicked sharp edge, in fact mine is still my sharpest razor, it is not my best shaver, but it is the scariest thing I put on my face.... The edges on the #105 are very, very, thin they basically ding if you look at them wrong, what I am saying here is that if you use those lower grit hones on that razor in particular, you are going to wear it down extremely fast.... besides the fact that your not going to get to the top end of it's performance curve...