Pasters please weigh in

Ideally I'm looking for feedback from those who have experience honing with stones as well as honing with pastes (diamond, chrome ox, boron carbide, etc).

Here are my questions:

1. Not factoring in edge longevity, do you find that pastes can give you a perfect balance of sharpness and shaving comfort? If so, what grits to you usually use and what are the pastes applied to?
2. What do you like about pastes or what advantages to you see that they have over stones/hones?
3. What don't you like about pastes over stones/hones?
4. Are you or do you know of anyone past or present that was accomplished with hones/stones and actually abandoned them to use pastes exclusively for their razor care?
5. Do you feel using pastes is "cheating"? and if so, why?

Thanks guys.

Chris L

Yep yep yep....



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I always finish my honing with 5 or seven return strokes on a flat bed leather strop covered in Chromium Oxide.

Why... because it smooths the surface of the bevel edge to virtually a mirror finish and it takes any rough edges off the cutting edge. The result is a smooth and as close and comfortable shave as I have found.
I have tried other pastes including diamond but the comfort levels were not as good.

Is it cheating? Who cares when shaving can be this good.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yep yep yep....



Attachment 17279

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Couldn't agree more Glen.

Although I do use the felt pads alot and no fuzz balls.........:rofl2:

Have fun,

Lynn

Yeppers Lynn I am liking that felt hanger too....


Apologies to Chris for the slight :HJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

Is it cheating? Who cares when shaving can be this good.

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I think that it's cheating but you cant argue the fact that the chromeox works! It does polish an edge. It does get an already sharp edge extremely sharp. Maybe too sharp for my face. Maybe I should back off the number of laps (I tried 10) and see if I can find a happy medium between sharpness and comfort.

Can O' Worms, eh? I'd actually like to have one of those in my basement but I haven't convinced my wife of it quite yet.

What's life without opening up some cans of worms?

For the record: These are honest questions rather than trying to stir up anything or agitate.


Chris L

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris L

Ideally I'm looking for feedback from those who have experience honing with stones as well as honing with pastes (diamond, chrome ox, boron carbide, etc).

Here are my questions:

1. Not factoring in edge longevity, do you find that pastes can give you a perfect balance of sharpness and shaving comfort?The only finishing hone I have to compare to is the Chinese 12k I bought from you, but so far, I do like the pastes better than the hone as far as comfort and sharpness. If so, what grits to you usually use and what are the pastes applied to?1.0, .50, .25 on a paddle strop. Lot's of guys say that the .25 diamond is too harsh, but I haven't seen it yet.
2. What do you like about pastes or what advantages to you see that they have over stones/hones?They are much easier to use and less punishing if you should have a bad stroke, and I have yet to "overhone" on a paste
3. What don't you like about pastes over stones/hones?So far, nothing.
4. Are you or do you know of anyone past or present that was accomplished with hones/stones and actually abandoned them to use pastes exclusively for their razor care?Nope. :)
5. Do you feel using pastes is "cheating"? and if so, why?No. As long as the result is a sharp, comfortable edge, whatever method you used to get there is valid, IMO.

Thanks guys.

Chris L

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<Insert my standard "I'm a newb" disclaimer here>

I'm on vacation through the end of the year (November and December completely off of work.. I'm spoiled), so I've been spending *alot* of time honing. Around five hours a day, and the one thing all this honing has taught me is that I don't know anything about honing. Typically, I hone three or four razors in a day, then use each of those razors to shave with in the evening, comparing each blade to my professionally sharpened blade.

So far, the best edges I've produced have come from this process: DMT 8E, DMT 8EE, Chinese 12k, then going through each of my diamond pastes (1.0, .5, .25) and finishing with 200 laps on the bare side of the paddle strop. Invariably, this produces some *very* sharp and comfortable edges.

Going right from the Chinese 12k to the strop to shaving results in a sharp but irritating edge on the razors I've done it with so far. I'm sure that it's mostly due to user error, though.

Here's my take on the issue;

After a while honing on th films I have thought about going to an all paste setup. More just to see if it can be done from comletely dull to shave sharp. I still think I'd have to use the hone for bevel setting but I'd like to go with paste from there. Someday anyway, right now I'm happy with the edge I'm getting straight off the 1 micron film. Though Seraphim has me thinking, always a bad sign.

Someone should make sure Tony see's this thread I think he is a paste honer from way back.

I also hone using lapping films.

I take it down to 3um, and lately have gone from there directly to 0.5 chrome ox.

Another update since that post I linked above is that what I had previously been using as "chrome ox" was that crayon green stuff, that is certainly not as fine as the ChrisL chrome ox, that I am currently employing.

So far I have mainly used Crom ox on a bench strop (HA felt) and a loom strop. I just got one of the new Lynn special hanging felts but I haven't pasted it yet. I have only used the Cr ox to freshen up an edge between passes if a razor needed it. I then take it back to the hones.

I recently got a TM four sided paddle with the usual 0.5,3.0 and 1.0 diamond paste and I applied Cr Ox on the fourth side. So far I have only used the 1.0 and followed it with crom ox. I still have to get to know the diamond pastes.

I don't think it is "cheating", sharpening is about removing and shaping metal and pastes are just another tool to get you where you want to go. OTOH, I still try to get it with the hones and the strop and will continue to do so until I am satisfied with my skill level. If that ever happens. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Here's my take on the issue;

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Very cool thread.

I think its safe to say that no matter what method we use it is the right method for us and to try and dissect which is better will go no where.

Getting a GREAT SHAVE is the ONLY thing that matters. NOT using paste-because it's CHEATING:rolleyes: is just plain STUPID.

Who cares HOW you "get there" just as long as you can indeed hone an edge that gives you a comfortable,close shave. Its nice to have most if not ALL the tools to hone at your disposal-then LEARN to use them.

1) YES
2)CrOx on a balsa paddle strop is one of my favorite honing tools. Cheap and EASY.
3).25 diamond paste creates a harsh edge IMHO.
4)NO
5) Like I said before-that is just plain STUPID:gth

I started with a DMT8ee and a 4 sided pasted strop with 3.0,1.0,0.5, and 0.25 micron pastes. It works very well once a bevel was set. Every week I would have to go to the pasted strop and then about every 3 months I would go to the DMT. I got very good shaves, with very sharp razors. I have since gone to a couple of hones. Using the 16K and 1K Shapton and really like the shaves that I am getting when using them. I have found that I can go 2 weeks between touch ups now and the shaves are very smooth. Starting with pastes is the way to go because it takes very little time to sharpen a razor that just needs a touch up. I could do a couple of razors in 15 minutes and was good to go for about 2 weeks. The idea is to learn to get clean, comfortable shaves and pastes helped me get there very quickly.

Take Care,
Richard

Totally cheating. Send your Tam O'Shanter to me as penance and go back 3 spaces.


Unless you are a hone only puritan, do what works, right?




Personally, I am on a "natural stones only" kick right now, so it would be out of character for me to do so (but you ain't me).

1. Not really. I've found pastes unrivalled in their ability to make a sharp edge, but for my skin the resulting shave is uncomfortable and harsh.
2. They are easy to use, very efficient and quick, and you can just pick up the pasted strop and in 30 seconds you're done.
3. Pastes can be a little messy in applying to the strop, but that's not exactly a regular activity. They do also tend to lead to a more fragile and ephemeral edge. Those and the comfort factor is what I find the biggest downside.
4. Nope.
5. Certainly not. As Arclight says, it's how the edge feels to you rather than how you get there. If you get the most smooth and comfortable shaves from pastes, then who's to say it's cheating?

I have recetly put my use of pastes to rest temporarily to focus on how good an edge I can get from hones alone. I may return to them, but ultimately the comfort of the shave is the most important thing to me, and my skin type doesn't respond well to adges sharpened on pastes.

If I may add something further. I have a paddled strop with 1.0,0.5, and 0.25 as previously stated. After much research I have decided what hones I might like and it so happens that I have picked Shapton 16K for instance and that will eliminate the 1.0 micron paste. I have seen a dramatic change in edge quality with that choice. I may get the 30K but that is expensive and we will see, I may instead, choose a different stone that is in that range. Another added note, for me coming off the 0.25 is harsh unless I strop at least a 100 times and there a lot of people that just use 0.5 Chromium and love the shave that they get off that.

The point being that pastes are great because they are very versitle and easier to use than hones. The harder the steel gets the better pastes seem to work. I have a couple of razors that have very hard steel and the resulting edge off paste has a lot less harshness and is very durable.

Take Care,
Richard

Here are my answers, they are a little oddball but hey, I got to be me.

1. 1.8 BC or CO on linen hanging strop, either the dry powder on the cloth or using beeswax as a binder for the abrasives. My new favorite is tin oxide on a denim covered paddle strop. I aslo have a hanger with flexcut gold that gets periodic use, but not for finishing. Perfect balance, it is never going to happen, that is like Nirvana. It is the trying to get there that makes this fun.
   
2. It is cheap to experiment with various abrasives as compared to buying exotic hones.
   
3. The mess
   
4. No
   
5. No

Charlie

I use mostly hones. I have a chrome-oxed stiff canvas hanger that I use if I need a quick touchup, or if after a couple of shaves I'm not satisfied with my coticule/escher/WOA edge.

But I've never understood this "cheating" concept.

I guess the idea is that pastes are the "easy" way out.

But there are a million threads about the risk of rounding an edge with pasted hangers, about the risk of a harsh edge from diamond pastes, about the risk of wire edges, or edges that shave well but don't last, about how to apply just the right amount (too much leads to dulling), about what sequence of pastes to use depending on the kind of steel and how dull it is, about leather vs. balsa vs. felt vs. linen vs. edge-leading on chrome-ox papers...

In other words the proper use of pastes is as much a skill as the proper use of hones.

Or is the idea that pastes are less traditional?

If so, wrong again. Pasted paddles and hangers were traditional barbers' tools.

I had a beautiful Tony Miller 4-sided with 3, 1, .5, and .25. A traditional razor sharpening instrument if there ever was one. I couldn't master it. I never knew which side to start with on a dulled edge, and wherever I started I'd then go through the whole damn sequence only to find the shave was no good. I found x-ing spine-leading on such a small tool difficult. I sold it after I got a escher & coticule and suddenly everything was so easy: you plop the hone down and hone until the thing's sharp, with no risk of overhoning. And natural hones are pretty forgiving with a newbie stroke (varying pressure, a less-than-flat razor here and there).

Did I cheat by giving up on pastes and turning to rocks?

If you send your razor to a honemeister and specify you want it honed on stones exclusively, and he secretly finishes on pastes, that's 'cheating'. Beyond that unlikely event, I don't see how the idea applies.

+1 to dylandog on that. I don't have any problem with pastes. Doing what works and produces results.... If stroking your razor on fluffy cotton straight from the field mixed with mouse hair produced the smoothest sharpest edge I've ever seen, then you can bet the farm that I'd be out finding a cotton field and setting mouse traps.

Using the internet for class collaboration and communication isn't traditional/conventional, but my life would suck if my professors didn't put stuff online.

Oh, and ebay and craigslist? yeah, forget that. I'm going to post a classified in the newspaper.....

maybe this is only funny to me but whatever. i didn't read this thread until it had hit about 16 posts because i misread the title as saying "pastors" rather then "pasters" and though i have no problem with religion and any thread about it i am not a pastor so i wouldn't be able to weigh in. i can't believe it took me that long to clue in. ha!

interesting thread as i really like my CrOx strop. i just find it really smooths things out. i don't have enough experience to give any real advice about it but i like it. i was real close to buying a 4 sided paddle strop from Tony Miller but the funds went dry and i have the hones to do the job just fine for now. it will be next though.