If you had it to do over again...

Hello all,
As many of you know, there is quite a wealth of information for the new guy to review concerning the matter of honing on this site. Many thanks to those who have contributed for the benefit of newbies like myself - it has been a long and interesting study (and I haven't even done hands on...yet! :D) I would like to purchase a set of hones (with a preference to staying with the same system throughout) for the purpose of maintaining my razors (two thus far - one honed by Lynn and another antique store find) and for restoring old razors I find. After my research here and abroad, I have formulated the following options for my starting set of hones and would like your advice on which one you would choose if, as the title states, you could start from scratch again. Please keep in mind the following stipulations: I travel (by van) most of the year (330 days) with my family (wife and son) in what can easily become a packed van (Grand Caravan). Also, the places I stay range from a room in a house shared with another family, to hotel rooms, to guest houses - so a dedicated sink or other area conducive to wet operations is not always easily accessible. Also, as I'll be leaving the country in about a year for a long duration, I would like something I can take with me without having to worry about replacements. Given the above information, which of the following options (with pros / cons listed) would you choose. As always, any other thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated.

Option #1
D8C (lapping), Norton 4k/8k, Chinese 12K

Pros: Relatively low startup costs, wealth of experience available from other users, well reputed equipment.

Cons: Requires soaking (necessitates a sink or other dish for that purpose), hones wear moderately fast with use (Norton), requires frequent lapping

Option#2
Norton Portable Waterstone system with Chinese 12K: Norton Portable Waterstone Sharpening System

Pros: Almost fully self contained system (the Chinese 12K might fit in there as well), 1" thick stones will last longer and can replace a single grit as needed, experience from others, well reputed.

Cons: Soaking time, storage space?, a little more expensive in startup costs.

Option #3
D8C (lapping), Shapton Glass 1K, 4K, 8K, 16K

Pros: Faster performance, longer lasting, requires no soaking, possibly more portable.

Cons: Higher startup, less experience available on tap.

Option #4
Other...

Thanks for your time and advice.

BJ

The full Norton start up set Lapping Plate 220/1000 and the 4/8 all in one kit for about $99-$120 depending on where you find it
A Shapton 16k as a final polisher $99

The Shapton is going to be the goto stone for most touch-ups and re-touches....
The Norton set only comes out when needed for Restores and such where you would be set up for that session....

BTW the title of the thread is misleading I would not do my hone setup over again but my hone needs are different then yours....

If I would leave my country for a year I would take shave-ready razors with me with a vintage Thruingian (small and light weight) and my Nakayama. If you want to restore razors during that period I would take my 1.5K and 5 K Shapton with me as well.
For lapping I would by some sandpaper locally.

I would vote for #3 choice. I believe you could do it a little bit cheaper by leaving out the 1K.

If I anticipated honing a lot, I'd go for
DMTD8C, Norton 4K/8K, coticule
which is a combination that can tackle most razors as long as they don't have significant nicks in the edge.

If I only anticipated maintenance for my daily razor, I'd go for just a good coticule from Ardennes coticule or Howard.

+1 on the Coticule. Or an Escher. Maybe it is just me, but I like old things.

I voted for "Other".

If I had to do it all over again, starting out, I would incorporate some pastes into the mix. You need no water and on a 4 sided paddle strop which is sufficiently small, you can have most anything you'd need to maintain edges well. Good for travel. 1 and .5 micron diamond pastes, chromium oxide and plain leather and you're good to go.

For more significant work or a home system, I would go with option #3 since I own and use every pieces you've mentioned there.

Chris L

If I had it to do over, I'd buy two prehoned razors, a japanese natural hone, and a strop

There really are many many ways to shave, er I mean skin this cat, aren't there? I'm sure we'll hear a whole slew of additional options on this post soon.

Chris L

Chris is right lots of different opinions. i have tried all the hones you have listed except the Chinese 12k.

if i needed to select a "light and portable" honing set it would be a d8c, a Belgium blue and a coticule. the only time you would need more than a few drops of water would be for the occasional lapping session. for years i maintained my razors with a few barber's hones and a natural Belgium combo. worked very well but not really ideal for any real restoration work.

I put the "D8C, Norton 4k/8k, and Chinese 12k " option, it's not what I have, but would be a great set-up nonetheless. My set-up is similar and I like it a lot. I have: a small norton diamond plate that I use for lapping (325 grit), 220/1000 and 4000/8000 nortons (which I have 2 sets of because I cut them both in half), and a belgain blue/yellow combo stone. It satisfies all my honing and lapping needs. But the DMT D8C, norton 4000/8000 and chinese 12k sounds like a great option too, except if you had a razor that needs more work (i.e. a courser grit than 4000, but not as extreme as 325 as in the DMT). Just my opinion!

Dave

Since you mentioned lots pf travel and limited space I can not answer the question as if I were starting over. I don't have those constraints. TO answer as 'What would I do in your position?' I agree with the guy above on the paddle strop, at least a seven day set of str8s (they don't need to match) and a leather/linen strop. If I (you) want to get fancy a small corticle, escher of barber's hone. Once my (your) blades are sharpened correctly I (you) won't need the other hones unless I (you) ae doing repairs to the edge and based on the environment that is not an option until I were off the road.

:gl:

FYI, I have that Norton portable water system and I love it! I didn't pay that much for it but it works really well. I don't like messing with the combination Norton hones so I prefer this system. The storage bin underneath is large enough for the Chinese 12k, a couple of DMT plates, and a few barber hones.

If I had to start over with the premise of being on the road most of the year,
I'd get a DMT D8F (600 grit), a fast Coticule and a Belgian Blue.
The D8F does everything a D8C does (that includes lapping the Belgians), it only takes longer, but you can step right up to that Coticule with slurry. Next the Blue with slurry to push the sharpness envelope a bit further before you finish on the coticule with water. You could restore edges with that setup and get very comfortable edges as well. And I think natural hones might fit the attitude of someone with your life style.:)

Bart.

I would have to go with Other:

1. DMT coarse
2. 8x3 coticule combo
3. Nakayama
Optional: 4. pasted leather strop

It would have saved me a lot of money, but I have learned a LOT along the way, and wouldn't trade the experience for anything. :)

I would, however, take the money back! :w

Like Joke said, and by the way, that's a nice sounding kit he made up there, there is the matter of the journey and the experience it gives you. I have had many different hones and if I lost everything and had to start out again, I'd go for #3 as I use those now but I'd still be adding a belgian blue and yellow, a pasted bench strop and keep a few $$ in the pickle jar incase something else interesting comes along. Like ChrisL said, there's more than one way to skin a cat and if the amount of money comes into the equation, I'd have to narrow it down to a D8C, 4k/8k and a coticule.... Anything added to that is for tweaking to your taste or for sheer convenience in my view. That toolbox with the 3 nortons..... I wouldn't bother. I've got one of the plastic honing boxes from LV and it's gathering dust here... too much trouble to clean out, potential mold issues unless you use bleach in the water etc. etc.

Regards

Christian

To be honest- I wouldn't change a thing. I have everything but a Japanese hone and have used all of them at one time or another.The experience gained using both natural and synthetic stones can't be beat.

There is no "do it all" hone.:shrug:

Thanks for the advice everyone. While I was expecting a diversity of opinions, I wasn't expecting my first three options to score so low. Guess all that reading did a lot of good :gaah:.

Bart, and others who recommended the BBW/ Couticle, would these two be up to restoring blades with minor chips or dings and resetting bevels? I'm not seeing myself doing severly damaged razors, but want something that can handle some restoration on razors I find here and there.

Gssixgun, you had a very good point about only needing the lower grits for honing sessions. Taking that into account, the soaking / water issue is more or less negligible and the Nortons seem like a good option.

While I have no experience with the pastes to rule them out, from what I've read I really don't see myself pursuing the "ultimate sharp edge" at this time. However, if I were finishing on a D8EE, I would have a paddle with some CrOx on it for smoothness.

Tenatively, I 'm considering the following but have some questions:

D8C( maybe D8F), Norton 4K/8K, Yellow Couticle - 6" X 2" yellow couticle ($200 from Howard)

OR

D6C (maybe D6F), BBW, Yellow Couticle - all 6"X 2" stones($160 from Howard)


1) Could I go from the D8C to the Norton 4k/8k or would I use D8C, Yellow with slurry, Norton 4k/8k, Yellow with water

2) Would the D8F make a good hone for both lapping and a low grit (600) starting stone. Anyone else use one for lapping?


Thanks again for all the replies everyone. Keep them coming! :tu

I don't use the DMT's for lapping, but I imagine the D8F would work much the same as the D8C for lapping, but it would just be slower. It would also work as a low grit honing stone, but from what I've heard the DMT's cut fast, and you don't want to hone too much on a 600. I think you would only need such a coarse grit stone to hone with if you were to do some major repair (i.e. getting out a chip). Just my opinion though, take it for what it's worth! (Probably not even worth $0.02 :D)

Dave

I'd go with a mostly paste setup for the situation you describe. The portability can't be beat. A four sided strop would give you all you need for maintenance honing plus your daily use. Add in some wet dry sandpaper in case of the need for nick removal and you could be set for quite a while.

Quote:

---

D8C( maybe D8F), Norton 4K/8K, Yellow Couticle - 6" X 2" yellow couticle ($200 from Howard)

OR

D6C (maybe D6F), BBW, Yellow Couticle - all 6"X 2" stones($160 from Howard)


1) Could I go from the D8C to the Norton 4k/8k or would I use D8C, Yellow with slurry, Norton 4k/8k, Yellow with water

2) Would the D8F make a good hone for both lapping and a low grit (600) starting stone. Anyone else use one for lapping?

---

You'll have more flexibility with the first package over the second package but I would go for at D8C for either of the two packages and skip the smaller D6C. You never know when you'll run into another hone down the road where the D8C's size will come in handy and it does not hamper you when flattening smaller hones. The D8C vs the D8F.... the D8C is the workhorse in flatting other hones, the D8F will work but will be slower and wear out faster... it might also *dull* the hones you flatten more than the coarser one. You want those diamonds to quickly level the hone you're flattening by cutting the binder in the hone, finer diamonds will have more of an effect on the grit embedded in the binder, possibly fracturing some of that grit and in a way, dull it. It's probably minor in this case but the wear on the diamond hone is not. The closer in size the grit on the coarsest hone you are flattening is with the diamond grit of the lapping plate, the more wear to the nickel plating that is holding those diamonds in place. DMT suggests the 325 and 220 grit plates for flattening water hones.

I would normally never start a razor on a D8C unless it was grossly damaged as such a coarse hone will likely do a fair bit of damage itself. I'd wet the Norton 8k side and use some 1000 grit wet/dry laid on top for the rough work, then switch to the 4k side and finish the bevel, then the 8k and finally the coticule. For regular maintenance honing you'll be fine with just the coticule though you might feel the need to return to the 8k for 10 or 20 strokes if you've let the razor go a bit far.

Regards

Christian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

That toolbox with the 3 nortons..... I wouldn't bother. I've got one of the plastic honing boxes from LV and it's gathering dust here... too much trouble to clean out, potential mold issues unless you use bleach in the water etc. etc.

---

I have never had a problem with mold because I dump the water out after using it. I would never expose my hones to bleach because I would never want to expose my razors to bleach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BJC

Bart, and others who recommended the BBW/ Couticle, would these two be up to restoring blades with minor chips or dings and resetting bevels? I'm not seeing myself doing severly damaged razors, but want something that can handle some restoration on razors I find here and there.

---

That's why I said: get a fast Coticule. They show quite a variance speed-wise, when used with slurry. How fast a Coticule cuts is easily observed, and both Howard or Ardennes Coticules shouldn't have a problem providing you with one. For minor chips and bevel correction, such a Coticule works like a charm. No soaking, it doesn't glaze up, it almost doesn't dish out, no overhoning risk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BJC

Tenatively, I 'm considering the following but have some questions:

D8C( maybe D8F), Norton 4K/8K, Yellow Couticle - 6" X 2" yellow couticle ($200 from Howard)

OR

D6C (maybe D6F), BBW, Yellow Couticle - all 6"X 2" stones($160 from Howard)

---

If it needs to double for lapping purposes, you really need the 8x3 size.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BJC

1) Could I go from the D8C to the Norton 4k/8k or would I use D8C, Yellow with slurry, Norton 4k/8k, Yellow with water

---

I consider this a big step, the D8C really is like walking with an elephant in a porcelain store (to use a Belgian expression) That's why I brought up the D8F option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BJC

2) Would the D8F make a good hone for both lapping and a low grit (600) starting stone. Anyone else use one for lapping?

---

I have used my D8F for lapping Coticules and Belgian Blues, without any problem, it just takes much longer than a D8C. So far, I haven't felt the need to lap one of my Belgian hones a second time. They only dish out at an extremely slow rate. If you bought them lapped by Howard, it could be years (depending on how much use they get) before you'd ever wanted to lap them again. I don't really know about lapping the Norton. I don't have one. But I understand some guys lap the 4K side a few swipes every time they use it. I don't see a reason why that shouldn't work with a D8F.

I of course picked option #3 but I would not trade anything for my experience with the other hones. These are where I learned to hone and made my mistakes. I found that all hones are not alike and each one has its own personality and has its own learning curve to be used to its full potential. The Shaptons are the only hones that are uniform from grit to grit and the technique and feel for use is the same for all. I have enjoyed and am still enjoying this learning experience.

bj

Thanks everyone for the replies and suggestions. I now have the beginnings of my set headed my way. I picked up a Norton 4k /8k, DMT8c, DMT6E, and Chinese 12k from another member. They were sold as sets for a very good (I think) price so I picked them up. I'll look into a couticle a little later after I've had time to acquire the basics with these hones.

BJ

With travel as a consideration, I believe I would look at weight and space considerations. Based on that, I would go completely with the Shapton Glass stone set up. Probably 1K, 4K, 8K, 16K and then bring either .5 diamond spray or paste and .5 chromium oxide. These would provide the most consistent and best edge producing set up for you in my opinion.

I don't think I have a suitcase big enough for all my hones.......:shrug:

Good Luck!

Lynn

lapping: sandpaper. Hones: Norton 1K. Ardennes Cot. BBW w/ slurry. Ardennes Cot yellow coticule. Chinese 12K. Linen and Leather.
:rock:

DMT D8C
DMT D6E
Barber hone(s)

I might add a DMT D8EE. I already had a DMT Machinist F (600 mesh).