Is it normal to take so long..

Is it normal to take about one thousand strokes on a norton 4k to set a bevel? I'm up near that figure and still no sharp bevel to start with..:cry:

The bevel looks good and seems fairly sharp but it can't shave sh**.

It seems to me that a single high quality stroke can be more efficient than countless poor strokes (the monkey wrench Bart talks about?.) That is what I encounter in my own honing ventures anyway. I too would like to know what a normal time is for this sort of thing! :)

Any question that begins "is it normal to..." is really hard to answer. In this instance, it depends on...

the particular razor, specifically the type of steel and the grind
the state of the edge at the start
amount of pressure used
probably lots of other things!

The razor is a Frederick Reynolds 5/8 that was shave ready when I got it a few weeks ago. The original owner honed the razor with tape on it. I only learned that after doing some touch up on a barber hone without tape.

I then tried my hand with my newly acquired norton 4k/8k to see if I could set the bevel without tape...

Try adding a layer of tape. It seems when it's taking a ridicolous amount of time and you know your strokes are good you probably need to change the angle by taping the spine. I always start without tape usually and especially with these vintage razors end up adding tape in order to get a good sharp edge.

I'll give it a try tomorrow!

The only way I got the blade decent was by using some 3M sandpaper. What grit would you recommend? I know 3M sandpaper differs in rating from a Norton for example.

what kind of grind are you working with? I am working on a Fredrick Reynolds as well, it is almost a full wedge and has taken a couple of hundred laps on the 1k. It has a pretty good smile to it, so I am using the rolling x stroke. I am seeing progress, but it has huge scratches all along the bevel that I am going to get out with the 1k before I move to the 4k.

I expect another 2 - 3 hours of work before this is ready to go.

Get a jewelers loupe (10x) or a microscope and keep an eye on your progress. It takes time.

It has a bit of a smile but not much it's a 5/8 hollow ground blade. I think I'm gonna get some more 3M sandpaper today and get the bevel done and then move directly to the 8k and then yellow coticule with water.

Not sure what grit of sandpaper to get though I was using some 2000 grit 3m automotive paper (I was told that it's the equivalent of a 4k water stone) I might just go with something lower this time..

I would recommend that you use the 4K after the sandpaper. The 4K will smooth out the sandpaper's scratch pattern. If you are using a sandpaper grit that is sufficient to set a bevel, then I would suspect the scratches will be too deep to be smoothed out by the 8K.

Of course, I should point out that I have NEVER set a bevel, or honed at all, on sandpaper so it's likely that you should ignore my advice.

How long does it take to make 1000 strokes?
I always managed to loose count so i keep time. Setting a bevel is seldom formulaic imho. There's too many different directions needed to keep count, and I just cant see getting there by light finishing strokes for the entire effort.

two more questions? what is happening on the spine? What are you leaving on the stone?

took me a long time few hours. The spine seemed okay.

I've since then tried my luck with sandpaper instead

I started with some 1k then 2k then norton 8k and finally yellow coticule with some water.

The blade was pretty darn sharp.

I'm curious as to why you would need to set the bevel on a blade that was shave ready just a week ago. That must be one tough beard you have. High iron diet I imagine.:rofl2:

It's possible, as a few folks pointed out, that the issue is the tape. If it was first honed with a layer (or two) of tape, you are essentially reestablishing a bevel if you choose not to use tape.

I know this has been discussed plenty of times elsewhere, but briefly, by not using tape, you are changing the angle of honing, and your first strokes will be on the bevel angle, not on the cutting edge -- which nay not even be touching the hone. And you'll stroke away until that old bevel angle is honed down and you finally set a new bevel and get to the cutting edge.

Four thousand strokes does seem a lot, though. I generally set bevels with a 1k, and sometimes even with a 500, so it might just take that long on a 4k, especially if it's hard steel (although the FR I have is relatively easy to work with).

Hope that helps some, and YMMV,

cass

Apart from the tape issue, if it was really dull to begin with, it will take a lot of metal removal to get it ready.
The bevels will look ok, but as long as the 2 bevels are not touching each other, it will still be as dull as a shovel.

How does your razor react to the thumbnail test?
If it still doesn't grab the nail, more honing is needed, in which case you might want to use a 1K stone, or -if you don't have one- use 1K wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface.

No, that is not normal. I also don't recommend re-setting bevels on finishing stones like a 4000 grit anything. Think of honing as a progressive process. You start with a coarse stone and proceed to finer stones. If you're not getting any results, drop back to a coarser stone. I take vintage razors from dull to scary sharp in about 20 minutes if nothing else is wrong with the razor such as a nick or a twist in the blade or a completely wrong bevel. In those cases it takes about 30 minutes. I use Shaptons for much of my honing lately and that 20 minute progression includes taking it out to a 30000 grit edge.