Significant disadvantage of X-pattern or i do it incorrectly ?

Unfortunately my hones are narrower than the lenght of blades of my razors so i have to employ X-patten when honing. I noticed that it causes irregular metal removal from the spine. The most metal is removed from the middle of the spine and it looks "flat" there. However, this effect appears mainly on one side of the spine; the second side looks better (the abrasion effect is more regular). The irregularity of the spine translates also on bevel unevenness which in turn makes honing more difficult. There is also another thing that bothers me. Namely, when performing a stroke on the hone the the heel touches it for much shorter time than the rest of the blade. This causes worse sharpness of the heel. Can these problems be corrected or do i have to get wider hones ?

im new to honing, so im sure other people will help, but what i do is use tape to stop the wear, and with my x stroke, i vary it to cover different parts of the blade,

biggest help for me has been a perm texter and drawing on the blade, then do a stroke and you can see how much of it was removed, this gives me an idea of how even my stroke is, and if i need to adjust accordingly

There shouldn't be any problems with a hone that's narrower than the razor, you'll just have to learn to use the x-pattern, and/or the rolling x-pattern as it's more convenient on older razors with smiling blades.

What kind of razor are you trying to hone, and is it possible for you to post a picture of it?

which side is it? the push or the pull stroke.

Everyone; I believe, whether they know it or not, has a bias when honing. A strong or weak portion of the stroke that needs some slight effort to compensate for.

The flat surface of the hone will have no difficulty identifying any inconsistencies of grind or warp when using a consistent even stroke. I have been lucky with the dozen or so vintage razors I have with no warp or other odd-ball problems.

It could be though that you are having issues with the application of force. I try to apply a slight twisting force to the stroke which lightens abrasion on the spine while directing it toward the edge. Also as the stroke progresses I try to alter the area where the force is applied. So that it "feels" like the "force"," pressure" transitions from heel, to middle, to toe.

This seems to be especially good at getting the heel and toe, with the middle falling behind. To compensate for this I hold the razor, perpendicular to the stone and do something more like a perpendicular sliding X. so when one area falls behind you make an extra stroke design to catch up.

For balancing, evening out, I end on each stone with a series of very light even strokes mimicking the strokes i will make on the finish hone. Each finer stone in the progression gets less directed stokes and more even balanced strokes so that by the time i get to the finish hone that is all it needs.

Still i have a bias at the end of my push stroke that gives me a slightly wider bevel on that side at the toe.

It is, as many realize, very difficult to describe. this may not be the problem at all. I advocate taking an active role in sharpening- making sharpness happen via light directed pressure. As I see it using weightless, even strokes throughout the progression is a passive technique.

First off I tape my spines with one layer of electrical tape to avoid wear on the spine. There are varying opinions on that practice but I think the general consensus is that it won't have a negative effect on the geometry.

I also have noticed a difference in my pulling and pushing strokes. I had to learn to consciously equalize the strokes. I use pressure in setting bevels and then ease up when I am honing the razor for sharpness and for polishing. Experienced honers on this forum have pointed out that the less pressure you use the sharper the razor will get. If you are wearing the spine that much I would guess you are using a fair amount of pressure.

For a really good explanation of the X pattern I went ot the help files in the tool bar at the top of the page and downloaded and printed out this barber manuel excerpt on honing. It describes how to put a bit more pressure on the heel and the point to avoid putting a frown in the center of the blade.

Narrow hones, as kevint said, are useful for smiling blades and blades with warped spines. Many honers prefer them to 3" hones and will actually cut them to 1" or 1 1/2". Check out the barber manuals and maybe Lynn's and Heavysquare's video tutorials. Lot of good stuff to go with there.

I'm always at such a loss as to the abuse the poor x pattern takes. It would seem to me that an x pattern wouldn't inherently cause any excessive wear in the center of the spine, nor especially on only one side.

Soon the x pattern will likely be blamed for the economic downturn as well.

Could we not take up a collection some day for the common defense of the x pattern?

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Could we not take up a collection some day for the common defense of the x pattern?

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I totally support the X pattern but I am against a bailout . :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I totally support the X pattern but I am against a bailout . :rofl2:

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My granddad thought me to sharpen knives 30 years ago, using what I now know as the x-pattern, so it's always made sense to me, but the bailouts, no, you reap what you sow.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I'm always at such a loss as to the abuse the poor x pattern takes. It would seem to me that an x pattern wouldn't inherently cause any excessive wear in the center of the spine, nor especially on only one side.

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On a narrow hone, the center of the blade is always in contact with the hone during the entire stroke, while the toe and heel are only in contact briefly. This will lead to a frowning blade unless the pressure is altered during the stroke.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

On a narrow hone, the center of the blade is always in contact with the hone during the entire stroke, while the toe and heel are only in contact briefly. This will lead to a frowning blade unless the pressure is altered during the stroke.

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The barber manual honing chapter here in the help files addresses this. It says to put a bit more pressure at the heel and toe during the stroke. It is a very informative read with the basics very well presented. I printed it out and have about wore it out re- reading it.

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The barber manual honing chapter here in the help files addresses this

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I've just read this and found it very helpfull. The razor i have is 100 years old. The original box and "User's guide" has been preserved for so many years (the photos weren't taken by me but this is exactly the razor i bought)
Ii honed my razor today again. It reached some extent of sharpness. It passes HHT sometimes. When i hone more, the sharpness doesn't get better. I think my technique is not good enough yet. My hones are made by "Tojiro" (Japan) 4k and 1k.
I compare the sharpness to one of new DE blade. DE always passes HHT and cut every single hair with ease. Maybe i still use too much pressure :thinking: However i can see it's easier to hone than my other DOVO razor. There is one thing that bothers me - when honing with one hand only it's extremely difficult to keep the blade flat on the hone using very light prssure at the same time. The razor tends to lift up when it is moved along the hone thus i use my second hand to press (very lightly) the razor so that it would not lift up. Is it wrong ?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

On a narrow hone, the center of the blade is always in contact with the hone during the entire stroke, while the toe and heel are only in contact briefly.

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Not as I do an x-stroke. I start each stroke with only the heel on the hone and end with only the toe on the hone. The center of the blade is only on the hone in the middle of each stroke. Unless I'm mistaken, what I do is the normal x-stroke.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

On a narrow hone, the center of the blade is always in contact with the hone during the entire stroke, while the toe and heel are only in contact briefly. This will lead to a frowning blade unless the pressure is altered during the stroke.

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Sometimes I wonder if everyone is just doing the x pattern wrong. I essentially pull the razor straight down vertically. I think a lot of people use far too horizontal of an overall pattern.

I suppose you do have a good point though, as usual.

Hopefully though someone does that sort of damage over a significant amount of time.

Many, including myself, actually prefer the narrower hones. My x-stroke ends with maybe 12mm of the toe still on the hone.

Reaching a DE level of sharpness is easier with an 8k to 12k hone. I'm not sure what grit scale the Tojiro 4k is on. Depending on the razor, and operator, paste/newspaper might even be needed.

There's nothing wrong with using two hands to hone. Shift your fingers around on the spine between strokes so the edge doesn't try to develop small "pressure spots". Just use as little pressure as possible to keep the spine and edge on the hone. This gets easier as you practice.

1 thing i know- my strokes are not perfect. If I continuously use the same pattern, the inherent error (however small ;)) will be multiplied; potentially becoming a prominent feature of the edge.

Each different type of x therefore can create a balance in which the positive and negatives cancel each other to zero. 0 edge dimension:rock:

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Originally Posted by kekon

Ii honed my razor today again. It reached some extent of sharpness. It passes HHT sometimes. When i hone more, the sharpness doesn't get better. I think my technique is not good enough yet. My hones are made by "Tojiro" (Japan) 4k and 1k.

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I would say you need something finer, say 8k or even more. Otherwise you won't be pleased with the results. I would guess that most guys here finish their honing in the 12k to 30K range. I myself finish up at roughly 16k.

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Originally Posted by kekon

I compare the sharpness to one of new DE blade. DE always passes HHT and cut every single hair with ease. Maybe i still use too much pressure :thinking: However i can see it's easier to hone than my other DOVO razor. There is one thing that bothers me - when honing with one hand only it's extremely difficult to keep the blade flat on the hone using very light prssure at the same time. The razor tends to lift up when it is moved along the hone thus i use my second hand to press (very lightly) the razor so that it would not lift up. Is it wrong ?

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It is fairly difficult to keep the blade on the hone with only one hand. Remember you can grip the razor like its in a vise if you have to just don't press the blade into the hone.

I consider the second hand to be wrong, some guys do use one but I found it far to easy to put too much pressure on the blade just with the weight of that second hand. In fact the pressure from the second hand could cause the entire problem you are worried about.

Tim, how can you tell if you have put too much pressure?

some pressure is needed especially at 4000, unless you just want to spend time

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Originally Posted by kevint

Tim, how can you tell if you have put too much pressure?

some pressure is needed especially at 4000, unless you just want to spend time

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If you are using more than the weight of the razor you are using to much pressure for HONING the razor. If I were to set a bevel with a 4000 grit stone I might use a little downforce, that combined with circles would do the job. Generally though if I need to do more than hone the razor I drop down in grit and use...you guessed it the weight of the razor.

I guess we then should agree to disagree. I miss why you emphasize HONING as you did, in the interest of clarity perhaps or did I typo the worn boning:gl:

Is it possible to achieve excellent sharpness with 12k hone ? I mean i set the bevel on 1k then honed the razor on 4k and shaved (i don't have 8k :( ). It was not bad but i felt the razor was not very sharp yet (i felt some pulling at ATG).

Yes, 12k can give you a very nice shaving edge.

I've read that some Germans finish up on a 6k hone. The mainstream here at SRP seems to like at least 8k. Quite a few like 12k or more. I often get good shaves from several barber hones that are probably in the 9k to 11k range. Sometimes even finishing up by stropping newspaper (around 0.1 micron, over 60k).

In my opinion, 4k is a bit rough to put a really "enjoyable" finished shaving edge on a razor.

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In my opinion, 4k is a bit rough to put a really "enjoyable" finished shaving edge on a razor.

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I'm just coming to the same conclusion. I will try to hone on 12k now but i think it will take plenty of time (at least 200 strokes or more)

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Originally Posted by kekon

I'm just coming to the same conclusion. I will try to hone on 12k now but i think it will take plenty of time (at least 200 strokes or more)

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Maybe picking up an 8K ASAP would be a good option. A big jump from 4 to 12K.

Try other honing patterns such as the 20 deg. side honing technique demonstrated in my DVD, "Honing the Perfect Edge". This technique is fine for narrow stones and it also reduces any chipping tendency.

I've just found and ordered 8k hone. I had been searching for it for 2 weeks. It's not cheap but i accept the price. When i receive it and flatten i will try to hone on it and say how it goes.

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Originally Posted by kekon

Unfortunately my hones are narrower than the length of blades of my razors so i have to employ X-patten when honing. I noticed that it causes irregular metal removal from the spine. The most metal is removed from the middle of the spine and it looks "flat" there. However, this effect appears mainly on one side of the spine; the second side looks better (the abrasion effect is more regular). The irregularity of the spine translates also on bevel unevenness which in turn makes honing more difficult. There is also another thing that bothers me. Namely, when performing a stroke on the hone the the heel touches it for much shorter time than the rest of the blade. This causes worse sharpness of the heel. Can these problems be corrected or do i have to get wider hones ?

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since this only happens on one side of the blade it might be as simple as you are tilting the blade a little when the middle is coming off the hone. two suggestions try a 3 inch wide hone and make your your stroke stays flat.. i have to be careful with my narrow hones because it is so easy to not have a flat stroke.

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Originally Posted by Howard

Try other honing patterns such as the 20 deg. side honing technique demonstrated in my DVD, "Honing the Perfect Edge". This technique is fine for narrow stones and it also reduces any chipping tendency.

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When might this long awaited DVD be coming up for sale Howard ? Inquiring minds want to know. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

When might this long awaited DVD be coming up for sale Howard ? Inquiring minds want to know. :shrug:

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I just looked at his website and i think it is available now!

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two suggestions try a 3 inch wide hone and make your your stroke stays flat.. i have to be careful with my narrow hones because it is so easy to not have a flat stroke.

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I can't get any wider hone now. My hones are 2 inch wide. Maybe 8k hone will help because i have only 4k now. (i will get 8k next week)
That's why i use second hand and put a finger on the spine to prevent lifting up the blade to keep it flat on the hone. I don't use any pressure, just a very light touch with the finger.

Two inch wide hone is fine for straight razors. Narrow hones are preferred by many and most of the old barber hones were 2 1/2. If you can't keep it flat on a 2 you won't keep it flat on a wider hone. Take your time and practice your stroke. Personally I prefer a one handed stroke. Like you I began having difficulty keeping the blade flat throughout the stroke and used two hands. I read on the forum that it is better to use one and began really concentrating on my stroke using one hand. Keep at it and it will come to you.

The main thing about the X pattern is that you need a nice even stroke, making sure the blade stays flat on the stone and very little pressure. When you see more wear at either the spine or in the edge, uneven pressure during the stroke is the likely culprit. Frowns and flattened tips or heels usually do not come with an even stroke and usually show up when there has been way more honing done to a razor than is necessary. It would take a significant amount of use and honing to wear a frown into a blade with normal honing, no matter how wide the stone is. Like everything in this sport, it is all about feel and practice.

Have fun,

Lynn

I too notice that if I don't make a conscious effort to keep the blade flat during an x-stroke I have a habit of tilting the blade. This is usually due to me trying to lighten the pressure too much and the weight of the scales tilts the blade.

I also noticed in reading some replies, not really this in this post, that people will use the term x-stroke when referring to what I would call a "rolling x-stroke". My understanding is that for the most part you should always use an x-stroke, even on a 3 inch hone, because that provides a better cutting angle. And that a rolling x-stroke is something you use when you have a blade that doesn't contact the hone evenly across the length.

I can see how if a blade has a toe that doesn't touch the hone when the blade is laid flat the toe will still make contact at the end of the normal x-stroke because that is the only part now on the hone, but the same cannot be said be a heel that doesn't touch the hone because you would have to tilt the blade, hence the rolling part, in order for it to make contact.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in this understanding.

That is my understanding of the rolling X as well. Smiling blades and/or warped spines are where it is required. I have read some feel that an X stroke isn't necessary on a 3" hone but I always use it and I think creates the best edge.

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Originally Posted by syslight

I just looked at his website and i think it is available now!

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Got one on the way. :tu

When i bought my first razor (DOVO 5/8, not used before) it had uneven bevel and the spine worn out in the middle but looked normal at other spots. I was astonished. Is it possible that it was sold as defective product from the DOVO factory (cheaper) ?
I also have other razor but it has much better bevel. However both razors achieve the same level sharpness when honed on 4k (i'm still waiting for my ordered 8k). I shaved with them but there is some uncomfortable pulling at ATG (i realize they are not sharp enough)

If the Dovo was supposed to be new and unused I would have contacted the vendor and asked for a replacement of a refund. If it is defective in workmanship Dovo/Merkur might replace it for you. Anne Rothstein was the customer rep I dealt with a time or two and she was very nice and very helpful. OTOH, if you've got honing it figured out in spite of the spine it might be alright as is. :shrug:

Your complicating the issue of different strokes... The only thing that has to happen to attain a sharp edge is that the entire edge has to contact the stone evenly down the hone.... Period end of story!!! How you have to manipulate that stroke to accomplish this, is where you get Rolling X stroke, X strokes, Heel forward stokes,, etc; etc:
If you go back one step and set the bevel you might add a few more fancy strokes in there too... But the bottom line, so to speak, is that the edge has to slide across the stone equally to attain an edge, it really doesn't matter what the stone is, or the razor geometry, if you cannot slide that edge across the stone evenly, you will not get a good edge or bevel....

Pressure is another thing that gets confusing when we talk about it on here. The term Zero pressure is tossed about a little to "lightly"... You need to use exactly enough pressure/control to keep the edge on the hone evenly, no more, no less....

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Your complicating the issue of different strokes... The only thing that has to happen to attain a sharp edge is that the entire edge has to contact the stone evenly down the hone....

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Well put Glen. I don't know if that was directed at me or the thread in general but I feel the need to elaborate on my earlier post. I was mentioning the fact that I see people say "x-stroke" when they mean "rolling x-stroke" because I think it leads to confusion. I can see someone who doesn't know any better doing lap after lap of x-strokes like he was told wondering why he can't get a sharp edge along the entire length when in fact it was a "rolling x-stroke" that he should have been doing. Just an observation is all. Though now that I look I see that this is the basic honing section and this semantics conversation may be a bit out of place.

Anyway, regarding the initial post, I don't see a disadvantage to doing an x-stroke. Though it may be true that part of the blade remains in contact with the hone for a longer time I feel that it is splitting hairs to worry about it. It's not as if one day you are going to pull out your razor and notice a huge frown. Maybe if you were in the habit of honing your blades every week you may see a problem but if that's the case you've got other issues to work out as it is.

Not at you at all, JC sorry for that implication, and I am in agreement that an X stroke doesn't create an un-even spine or bevel IF IT IS DONE EVENLY