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I recently got my hands on a Dovo Tortoise 5/8 razor. After countless hours of honing I still can't get it sharp or anywhere shave ready.
I've tried the norton 4k for a long time nothing..
Went back to a 800 grit wet/dry sp still nothing..
I don't know what to do next..:(
It's such a nice llittle razor but for some reason it just doesn't want to cooperate.
dyu ever set a new bevel on a new razor? if not you might want to send it to a honemeister here first, so you can see and feel a proper edge fin. Maintaining an edge is easier than setting one.
This is only my second razor, but I was able to put a nice edge which shaves well on my other razor but for some reason this one is just beyond me..
You can send it to me if you want . . .where you at?
I'm in New Brunswick, Canada.
Lots of guys in Canada. Whats with the 800 paper. What are you trying to do with that?
Well I couldn't get it anywhere with the 2000 grit so I thought that maybe going lower would help create the bevel. I also thought that the actual sandpaper grit was a bit different than lets say a waterstone. Something like a 2000 grit sp would be more or less similar to a norton 4k.
to quote slick willie...."i feel your pain." I have the same razor you’re talking about, and I have the same problem. I honed it to about 200 laps on the 4000 side of the Norton, then another 150 on the 8000 side. Then finished it off with about 60 strokes on a syderco ultrafine. And still, it’s not sharp. i’m not able to glide it over my face without casuing some serious abrasions that are still felt the next day. It’s really a frustrating razor, even though people swear by it!
I don’t know if the bevel is set properly. I’m thinking about buying (yet another) hone, this time one with a very low grit to set the bevel (hopefully) and start the process all over again.
In the meanwhile, I’m probably going to buy another shave-ready razor (been thinking about the Wapi I or even the Wapi II…still waiting on people’s reviews for the latter) to really see what a shave-ready razor looks and feels like.
But I swear, if I can’t get this honing thing down, I’m going to give up on straight razor shaving. I feel that if i can’t hone it and keep it razor sharp by myself, then it sort of defeats the purpose for me.
There is something going wrong with the stroke here... 200 laps on a 4k Norton is a lot of laps too not notice a differnce....
Those Dovo's are normally a very easy bevel set, and hone out, there is very, very, rarely a "Trick" to them. Every now and then you will find a very slight warp, but even then it is pretty easy to hone around with a standard X stroke.....
This is one of the rare times I am going to give actual stroke counts, and these are just for comparison sake....
On most new Dovo's (carbon steel) it takes about 30 laps on a 1k Norton to set the bevel, 30 laps on the 4k to get that bevel arm hair popping sharp and maybe 20-30 laps on the 8k to get it smoothed up...Then either use a finisher or take it to the strops and you are shaving.... Keep in mind that everyones stroke counts vary, because we all vary... They are not a step by step map to follow because we all have different sized steps but it is a general direction.... I use 10 lap sets on everything, 10 laps check the edge with whatever test is appropriate, until after the 4k stone, then I don't touch the edge any more...
Don't have a 1k no sweat, stay on the 4k and leave it there until it is popping arm hair up and down the blade and I don't mean 1 or 2 hairs, I mean shaving arm hair easily...
Question for both of you are you comfortable with the TNT, it is your friend when making sure you have a bevel.... No grabby on the thumbnail, no bevel, and not just 1 spot on the edge, THE WHOLE EDGE heel to toe must be grabby.....
:gl:
When I read these type of posts I always wonder what is happening to the spine with all that time on the hone with no sharpening, and what is showing up on the hone surface.
Actually, I think the 800 sandpaper is pretty aggressive for a new razor. I am not a fan of the sandpaper to begin with as I have seen so many edges destroyed by it and once that happens, you really do need to drop down and get all the sanding marks out and reshape a new bevel. At this point, I would need to take a look at the razor to see what it needs, but I would starting with 10 stroke pyramids on the Norton 4K/8K or using Glen's methods and this should produce the most benefit. A key is to make sure you are using consistent and light pressure in your honing strokes.
Alan's offer is very generous and worth taking him up on it. That way he can look at the razor and report to you what he feels you are doing with your current honing.
Lynn
I started straight razor shaving in the early to mid 1980s and did exactly what you are saying. I bought some coticules from old barbers and one of them showed me how to hone for about 30 seconds. He told me that "you can overstrop a razor" and that you can overhone a razor. He never mentioned flattening the stone or setting the bevel and there was no instruction that I was aware of at the time. So I gave it up until this past year. Looking back I wish that I had stayed with it. I could have found a barber that knew what he was doing to hone the razor for me and maybe eventually learned to hone my own. Wish in one hand and (expletive deleted) in the other :gaah: I just quit. So hang in there and keep at it. If you can find someone near you who can show you in person that would be great, if not watch the videos on honing by Lynn and Heavysquare that are in the general sub forum and read and re-read the honing tutorial in the Wiki. Don't let it whip you. :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by kaiser1498
Yeah, I thought that it was a lot of strokes too, but even after all those strokes, I can’t get it slice through my arm hairs….unless I actually shave them off at skin level. If I put the blade on the skin of my arm and shave, it will cut the hairs then. but I thought the arm hair test was that you don’t put the blade on your skin at all….but instead, just slice the hairs off it without the blade touching the arm at all.
I’ve done the TNT and the TPT. The nail test I’ll only do after the 4000 and its feels good. Digs in, doesn’t have any kind of stutter or hesitation, just slices in and glides through nice and smooth. But the blade never seems to pass the TPT. it feels pretty blunt on my thumb pad. I kind of have to press a little bit to get it to sink in. and the blade has never pass the HHT at all. (I do use my wife’s hair off her hair brush, and its very thin and fine hair, which I understand is harder to pass the HHT test with).
But most importantly is that it fails the shave test. seems that the blade doesn’t cut the hairs cleanly. There’s some grabbing and pulling, which leads to lots of little abrasions. Granted, I’m new to all this, and maybe it’s just poor technique, but to me the blade just does not seem sharp.
i’m probably going to buy a new razor, professionally honed and stropped, to compare with what I have now. If I’m still getting all these cuts, etc., then I’m going to have to assume that it’s my poor technique.
at first be patient.
second the best way get out from your situation i think microscope.my understanding you are confused now.use micrscope see what are you doing vision helps alot .good luck .it sholdn't be expensive one from radio shack etc you can find for a 10$.
hope this helps
Once the razor passes the TNT don't use it anymore. From there on just the TPT. The arm hair thing should be with the razor not touching the skin. If you hone enough you won't depend on that for long because you will run out of arm hair. :) Take a new DE or single edge blade and get to know the TPT better.
i would, but i don't even really know what to look for.
my arm hair is really very fine. doesn't that make it harder for the blade, even if really sharp, to cut it. it cuts the hairs off a the base, when i'm touching the blade to the skin. but when i lift the blade off the skin, all it does it just fold the hairs over
The hairs should fall like rain when you just touch them with the blade. Get to know the TPT. If the thumb pad slides it is a dull blade. If it grabs it is sharp. If you use a new DE blade you will get the feel of a sharp blade and know what to feel for on your straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiser1498
General consensus is that if the razor isn't getting sharp the bevel may not be correctly set. As hi-bud said, magnification is your friend and you cah look to see if the scratch pattern goes all the way from the edge up to the end of the bevel.
If the bevel isn't all one color from the edge up to the end of the bevel it isn't there yet. As Randydance told me this is the most time consuming part of honing a razor. With patience and persistance you will get there.
Yeah, I’m thinking the bevel is off. I really don’t wan tto buy another hone, given that I’ve already spent quite a bit on the Norton combo and the syderco UF. Can I set the bevel with the Norton 4000 side? How long do you think that would take? I’ve already done 200 strokes on that side, and appartently it wasn’t enough.
Incidnteally, I have a DMT hone for knife sharpening. I have both the red (fine…600 mesh, 25 micron) and the green (ultrafine…1200 mesh, 9 micron). The red is probably too aggressive to use on a razor. But do you think I should try the green ultrafine hone to set the bevel, then move on to the 4000, 8000, then the sypderco?
I am not familiar with the the ultrafine but I use a DMT D8E 1200 to set bevels some of the time and it works well. If it is a 1200 it should be fine. Give it a try. Doing the circle strokes and the back and forth Livi strokes with a bit of pressure. You could do it on the 4K I am told, but I never tried it myself. One way or the other like hi_bud suggested magnification would be a mighty good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiser1498
The DMT ultrafine hone (1200 mesh) is pretty much the same DMT D8E 1200, except that the former has those the honeycomb perforations on its surface, and the latter has a continuous diamond surface. Both are 1200 mesh, 9 microns though.
Is it safe to hone a razor on a surface with those perforations? Will it cause any damage to the edge? I don’t want to ruin the blade.
I don't know. I think I remember a post by Josh Earl about honing with one but I am not sure? Someone with some experience with one will be along soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiser1498
If you do not have a microscope easily available you can use a magic marker to mark the bevel and then give the razor a few strokes on the stone, this should help show you where the bevel may be off!
You have gotten a lot of good advice here!
thanks for all the good info guys! I think my main problem lies with the norton 4k...It just seems like the edges of the hone are a bit rough..Even when I apply the lightest touch, I still feel like the edges of the hone are ruining whatever edge I'm trying to put on the razor. The hone is relatively new and has only been lapped with a norton flattening stone a few times. Could it be possible that the stone is still too rough because it's new?
The 8k side seems to do the job fine...
When I honed my other razor (a Frederick Reynold 5/8 with a bit of a smile) I used the sandpaper to set a good sharp edge and then moved to the 8k side and yellow Coticule for polishing.
The edge on that one is now pretty darn good and passes the TPT very well.
I shaved a small beard I had going last night with about a week growth and the reynold was very smooth and left my face very soft.
Hopefully I'll find a solution during my christmas break (I'm a student) and get that damn dovo going too.
I also got some nice shaving goodies waiting for me when I get home so I'd like to take full advantage of them
:D
If you haven't rounded the edges of your norton do so. Sandpaper is good for that so you won't mess up your flattening stone. The edges can chip the blade if they are left sharp. Enjoy your holiday.
I tried but I didn't really do that great of a job. What grit sandpaper should I use for that? What kind of movement should I use to do it?
You could use 325, 600, whatever you have. It is just whatever it takes to round the edges of the hones. It doesn't have to be major removal. Just round the corner a bit. You don't want a sharp corner/edge or especially any chips on the edge of the hone that could catch the edge of the razor. Just a back and forth motion with the hone in one hand and the sandpaper in the other pressing with the fingertips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dups
Yeah, definitely got a lot of good advice on here. I think I’m gonna try setting the bevel with DMT ultrafine hone and see how that goes.
I sometimes use the DMT Machinist model fine 600 mesh to get a bevel moving along on stubborn razors. It's the one in my current avatar. I haven't yet caught any razor on the "dots". I do use extra care when using it on a true spike point (just in case). It might be a little safer to use a continuous surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiser1498