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When you have a razor that was properly honed on a 4k/8k Norton, what is the best way to finsh it on a yellow Belgian Coticule? It is said that with water only, the Coticule is about 10K to 12K grit. How many laps would be recommended? What are your experiences with a Coticule as a final polisher?
I don't have anything against pasted strops but I would love to be able to work with a Coticule only and get a keen and shave ready edge. Any feedback is highly appreciated. Thanks!
i am against to advise people to use how many strokes etc.
this is what i think.
1 usually there is hard to find exact hardness steel . 2 blades which is made in same company has different hardness sometimes.
2 nd Belgian coticles are natural stones and you will never find exact 2 coticles quality hardness etc.cutting quality
3 rd .Belgian's handy stone you can use it put final edge and get ok shave (fist use with slurry then slowly increase water amount)
But if you want to get great edge then you have to move up a little bit.escher's ,katayama (i have never used it) and pastes.
hope this information helps.
While I intend to experiment with some pastes and/or higher grit stones in the future, I presently finish with a coticule (water only) and lot of stropping and get what I believe to be very good results.
I think many of the members will tell you that you need a higher grit stone and/or paste if you're going for that nth degree of sharpness and smoothness, seeking the "perfect" shave, but you can definitely get a good edge that is suitable for daily shaving off of a coticule.
Number of laps with the coticule? I think you just need to experiment with your razor(s) and see where you get the best results. The common consensus is that you cannot overhone with a coticule but the law of diminishing returns will eventually kick in.
I have not been shaving for very long.
There are synthetics that could replace it.
If you are honing your own razors and you do not have a coticule, then you missing out on a pretty big thing:tu
+1 with hi_bud_gl there are too many variables to advocate any 1 progression. Thats why many of us have many different hones. Although the yelow coticule is the most versatile hone out there and you should be able to finish almost any razor on it, I still would use a thuringian to finish, even after the yellow.
The yellow is probably the most versatile hone out there, that is it's true strength....
As a finisher it is good but not great there are plenty of stones that are probably better (keep in mind the last finish is a personal thing)
Also as you can read tons of threads on just this hone, you will find that it is a natural stone so they actually differ between stones, as to the final finish, so some people who happen to have bought a very, very, fine one will tout it's finishing capabilities, but that does not necessarily mean that the one you get is going to be as good...
As you have already heard above how many laps is to subjective to nail down.... To much of the "Art" in honing is in the hands of the honer...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I just got my second coticule and the difference between the two is night and day. My initial combo is almost too coarse and fast to use as a finisher, and the combo I got from Ardennes is slower and almost as fine as my Nakayama. Go figure! :hmmm:
That just means you need to buy a LOT of stones, otherwise you don't know what you are missing! :rolleyes:
+1's on all that.
Read around and know what you are asking for- get a medium;):shrug: .
You will likely not get the finest shave-that's not what I meant when I say you'll miss out. Mine just gives a real shave :cool: like just enough tug so that you always know where the edge is while leaving as clean a first pass as you get
While it eats its way down in a scratch pattern with each stroke, a Coticule becomes increasingly slower. That's because the initial sharp peaks of the previous (Norton in your case) scratch pattern are easily abraded, but the flatter and rounder they get the less effective the Coticule with only water becomes. Without slurry a Coticule will never (within a humanly reasonable amount of laps) reach the valleys of the previous scratch pattern. Anyone can check that out with magnification.
Because of this, it really does not matter much how many laps you make, as long as you keep the pressure low, and do enough. I usually recommend 70 to 100. You won't overhone on a Coticule.
For the same reason it is imperative that you hit good keenness before the Coticule. Don't expect that a Coticule with water will make up for a lack of sharpness. With water, it "nicefies" the edge, rather than sharpening it.
I agree with Joke1176 on his observation, but we must not exaggerate those differences. Most Coticules sold for razor use, will be very nice finishers. Some are ultra-finishers, but I don't think the 8K offers the keenness to bother with those.
Bart.
If you email Rob at Ardennes and specify what you want to do with it he says that he can pick the hone appropriate for your needs. I have four coticules and they are all different but the differences are subtle with three of the four. One is harder then the other three and is a nice finishing stone. I love coticules and if I could only keep one hone it would be a coticule.
Yes, you could get a comfortable shave finishing with a belgian coticule. Many have and do just that. It would be impossible to tell you to do "x" number of laps though. I personally have 2 coticules and both have completely different characters.
Bart, makes an extremely valid point- DO NOT expect the coticule to make the edge sharper though. It's task with water is to smooth and refine the edge. Although I personally never finish with a coticule-I think they belong in your hone "arsenal";). No 2 razors hone alike and giving a distinct set of instructions on how to hone them just isn't going to work. It'll take some experimentation-but that's part of the fun! (or frustration:roflmao)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Bart raises a good point: In most cases, they will be pretty similar in character, give or take a few thousand grit wise. There are some oddball hones out there, especially if you buy from ebay or whatnot, but everybody that buys from the mainstream sellers around seem to have similar assessments of stone abilities.
Thanks for all response. What then would be recommended as a good finishing stone after the Coticule?
A thuringian stone is a great finisher, its also known by its dominant brand name, Escher.
I have not experimented with it enough to draw my own conclusion yet, but I recall that a web site selling Thuringian hones declared that there was little benefit to be gained by using their hone after a coticule.
That is the Timbertools website. The quote is, "The Escher is NOT recommended as a final hone if you have used the natural Belgian garnet stone in advance. We are often asked about this combination use and can, at best, offer the advice that Belgian hones produce an edge without burrs, therefore that edge is already drawn to a more ideal finish, not gaining any advantage using the Escher."Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I am glad I hadn't read that before I started using an Escher blue/green after a coticule. :) I got fine results and I am pretty sure Lynn has written that he has used an Escher after a coticule as well. I know that he has used it after the 4/8 Norton. The Shapton GlassStone 16K may have shot the Escher out of the saddle for Lynn now. I'm not sure ?:shrug: I feel that the edge finished with an Escher or a hard coticule is more comfortable then that off of a synthetic hone.
I've recently acquired a dark blue as well as a blue/green escher and,at least IMO, find the thurigian's improve the edge finished on either of my coticules.
The more razors I hone, the more I realize each finish differently. As of late I have several razors in my rotation that are giving very comfortable shaves directly off my 30K Shapton:shrug:. I'm starting to realize the only RULE in honing razors is there is NO RULES!
I don't know guys. You can really go crazy looking for the ultimate sharpness. Kind of like looking for the ultimate razor steel or really the ultimate of anything.
I find with the far majority of my razors I can get a very good shave off the Norton 8K and the Coticule gives me my ultimate. If I use my vintage Escher the result is comparable to the Coticule however there are a few razors that seem to do better with the Escher than the Coticule and vice versa as there are a few razors that do better with a diamond pasted strop.
Yeah N, I've seen you post that before and you are absolutely right. You've been at it longer then I have and I have found it to be true for me too as I gain more experience. The ATS 34 and the TI Damascus are examples of steel that needed the diamond pasted strop...... or a more experienced hand on the hones. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I haven't tried shaving off of an 8K yet. Up until I got other finishing stones I had my Swaty and used that to follow the 8K with some good results. I may give an 8k shave a try to see how that feels compared to going to the higher grits first.
I would first hone on the Norton 8K then strop and test shave.
This should give you a good shave.
If not then stay on the4K/ 8K until it is a good shaving edge. Jumping to the coticule will not make it better.
Once you do obtain a very good shave from the 8K then you can perform 30-50 laps on the coticule, water only, strop and test shave.
Repeat until you obtain a desirable shave.
BTW, you can overhone on a coticule or an escher. It does take hundreds of laps.
When I first got into this I already had a Swaty so I would hone on the Norton 4/8 and then finish on the Swaty. Wasn't long before I had a Shapton 12k and an Escher blue/green and I would finish on one of those. I had never shaved off of an 8k until tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
He has helped me a great deal with my honing so I set great store in what Randy says. After reading his post above I took a Bartmann Mangenese Wedge that I got off of ebay last week and honed it up. It was basically like new and didn't need much. A conservative pyramid on the 4/8 and it was fine with the TPT. I stropped it and much of the edge would pass HHT.
The important test came next and I got BBS in a two pass shave. Not quite as smooth as it would have been if I would have polished the edge with a higher grit but plenty comfortable and plenty close. Thanks again Randy ! :tu
Jimmy, thanks for the compliment.
It has surprised me that guys feel a fine finishing hone is necessary. It is not. An 8K hone will provide a very good shave by itself. The pastes and finer hones do provide a sharper edge and/or a more comfortable shave but they are not a necessity.
The other mistake is that guys feel that a 8k hone will make up for a poor job done on the 4K hone. Guess again, it just does not work that way!
I still haven't tried a natural stone yet. After my Norton 4/8 I finish with a Shapton 16k and it works great for me. Like someone mentioned in another thread, I like having an actual grit count on my hones for some reason. The 16K puts a pretty nice polish on the edge and makes for a nice, comfortable shave IMO.
I've also tryed shaving at the 8k i have been using norton 4k/8k for 2 years now and i have never shaved of the 8k.
So i gave it ago and guess what no problem infact i think for the every day shaver like my self that is all you need. On my second shave this morning i have aded the coticule with water 75 laps yeh probably a little smoother but not much and defanatley not sharper i have 12k kitiyama i think i will try the same routine but with 12k kitiyama and compare. To be onest i have two coticules one bbw and 12k kitiyama .You have to try differant hones and if you don't need them you could easily sell them but i realy think the norton is ideal and all you need unless you hone razors for living.
For about a year, I used to just use my Coticule as a finishing stone. At first with a light slurry and then just with water. All my Coticule's have a very tight grain and quite nice actually. When I came off the 8K to the Coticule, I found that 10-15 strokes was optimal and that if not perfect, I could come back to fine tune at 5 stroke incriments. Just for the sake of discussion, there was a period of time when I just used the 4K/8K and got really nice shaving results. At this time I am using either a "Real" Escher stone or Nakayama as my polisher and sometimes I will follow with the paste or diamond spray. I still find that 10-15 strokes works best for me on the Escher or Nakayama.
Lynn
I have been trying Lynn's "the less strokes the better" policy more and more and it is working really well for me most of the time. :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Wow, Randy just blew my mind. I've been honing under the impression that you could not over hone on the coticule. I typically do about a hundred laps or so before I shave test. For the life of my I can't seem to do the tpt so I rely on how well it shaves arm hair as my test.
Though after reading that Lynn only does 10-15 laps I think I'll pull it back some. I've never shaved off a bbw and assumed I needed more laps on the coticule to make it shave ready. This may change my whole outlook.
FWIW I've tried the TPT on a new double edge blade and can't feel a thing. Maybe I'me doing it wrong.
Anyway, to answer the post, I finish on a coticule. Lately I've used two to finish. The first is an old combo that is soft enough to draw a slurry on its own, then I follow it up with a much harder coticule. I don't know if that last stone does anything more but I like it.
If Randy says he can overhone on a Coticule, I believe him. But I can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCitron
When used with water a Coticule makes relatively wide but very shallow scratches. It is a very slow process. A fast for its fineness 8K synthetic hone, such as a Norton, leaves a crisp, peaky scratch pattern. Overly simplified:Quote:
Originally Posted by JCitron
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The Coticule easily abrades the sharp tips of those scratches. The result resembles:
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As the Coticule progresses down, the surface it needs to abrade becomes increasingly larger, which slows it down at an exponential rate. In practical terms it will never really hit the bottom of the valleys. If you have magnification, you can do a little experiment: hone with a toe leading X-stroke on the 8K, and next try removing the scratches with a heel leading X-stroke on a Coticule with water. Both hones' scratches run in different direction, so it's easy to spot when the 8K pattern is completely eradicated. You'll see that it takes a long time. A very long time.
Luckily, it does not really matter. The first strokes are the most efficient, hence for smoothing out a synthetic scratch pattern, it does not take much, but it does not matter either if you do a lot more. (I am only talking about Belgian hones here, used with water) This also explains why a Coticule with water will never make up for neglected sharpness at the previous level.
Now. If you hone a progression of DMT1200 - Belgian Blue/slurry - Coticule/water, Then your maximum sharpness will be what you manage to achieve of the Blue with slurry. That is decently shaveready, but it is not ulteriorly keen as the Chosera 10K (and I also suspect as the Shapton 16K, but I don't own that one, so I can't make hard statements here) If you want to squeeze out the last bit, to maximize the keenness possible with the DMT-Belgian progression, you need to do enough laps on the finishing Coticule. If you are prepared to convex the edge after that with CrO, and pay the longevity price, you can achieve ulterior keeness, but the Belgian edge shaves very smooth without it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCitron
Coming off the 8K, I would skip the soft Coticule and go straight to the hard Coticule. If Lynn recommends 15 laps, I'd start right there.
Best regards,
Bart.
I agree with this statement, but this is why I use a coticule w/light slurry after the blue w/slurry and before the coticule w/water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Sometimes people assume that since a coticule's heavy slurry is seriously dulling, a moderate slurry must be moderately dulling, and a light slurry must be lightly dulling. In my experience this is not the case. A light slurry speeds up the coticule and improves the keenness considerably after the blue. I do about 30 or 40 laps with light slurry, adding water and making it still lighter as I go along, then wash it off and do a few dozen light laps w/water only.
I realize that every coticule's different. With a light slurry mine keens up a razor pretty quickly.
I recently got a BBW and a cotucule, and, with limited experience, I have had some success. I have been setting bevels on a King 1K, moving to the blue with slurry, going to the blue with just water, and then the coticule with water.
While I have not honed many razors, I will say this progression seems to be working for me. Yesterday I used a 6/8 ish, wedgie blade and got an amazing shave shave after one pass with and one pass against the grain and some cleaning up here and there. I have also noticed that I am left with no irritation, even in the areas where I did the cleaning up.
Sharp and smooth, and I can't wait to hone more.
Plus one holi i have been using the same bbw with slurry 75 to150 laps and same on yellow with water and results are smooth and plenty sharp enough i do 5 to 10 laps on chr.5 only if i'm happy woith shave of my yellow
Ditto on the progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
The coticule certainly gives a smooth close shave but I do like my Chinese 12k to finish off.
I'm just an icing on the cake type of guy.
Maybe buy an Escher one day:D
+1 on the 12k, I like it as a finisher too!Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
There is almost no better stone than a Belgian Coticule. All you need is good strop and a nice coticule. You will be set for life.