Shapton hones

I recieved my shapton 16k in the mail today.I imidiatly tried it out on three of my shavers.They were only polished on the norton 8000, so I did about 50 laps on each razor.I know this has been said before.But the result really blew my mind.The shave was very close.But the smoothnes was what impressed me the most.I did finish with chromOx for the first time,and I used Castle Forbes shaving cream.And those must take some of the credit for the amazing shave, but still...
I was just wondering, have you exp.shapton users similar WOW! experiences with the lower grits?
(Compered to what you were using before you got the shaptons.)

Also: If I'm going all Shapton( which I probably will) In your oppinion, what grits do I really need, for the entire process? I'm talking bevel setting,sharpening,polishing and finishing with shaptons only.
No HAD infected answers please:D

I bought my first Shapton 16K about 7 months ago. It gave me a happy grin when I first used it. Now 7 months later I own all Glass Shaptons. I even have a bigger grin on my face. :D
I just received the GDLP from the wife so I'm a happy camper.
They are worth every penny for me but again I do use them daily.

You definitely would need the 500, 1000 for setting bevels. The 1000 is not enough on hard steel so the 500 is a must. 4000, 8000, 16000K would make it a nice complete basic set.

Max, how many laps should be done of the Shapton 16K after the Norton 8K?

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Originally Posted by Maximilian

I bought my first Shapton 16K about 7 months ago. It gave me a happy grin when I first used it. Now 7 months later I own all Glass Shaptons. I even have a bigger grin on my face. :D
I just received the GDLP from the wife so I'm a happy camper.
They are worth every penny for me but again I do use them daily.

You definitely would need the 500, 1000 for setting bevels. The 1000 is not enough on hard steel so the 500 is a must. 4000, 8000, 16000K would make it a nice complete basic set.

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Hi Max. What is there in your technique that makes a 500 necessary for setting a bevel?
I have been using the 1000 for the past 4 years on edges up to 65 rockwell, breadknifed razors and usually have hair shaving bevel in 5-15 minutes. On really bad stuff it might be nice, but a must? I respectfully disagree:)

But would you agree about only needing 1000,4000,8000 and 16000?
thanks.

Hey Kris.
16 if you really want it. Oh yeah. you already got it. That's where I like to go natural(beyond 8) eventually I probably will get a 16.

My coarser stones get much more abuse use than dedicated razor hones receive. I simply cannot imagine going back to sandpaper lapping.

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Originally Posted by kevint

Hi Max. What is there in your technique that makes a 500 necessary for setting a bevel?
I have been using the 1000 for the past 4 years on edges up to 65 rockwell, breadknifed razors and usually have hair shaving bevel in 5-15 minutes. On really bad stuff it might be nice, but a must? I respectfully disagree:)

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Kevin,
I restore and work daily on many razors. I do encounter razors that would take me a long time if setting a bevel on a 1000 Shapton with no pressure off course. If I use lots of pressure then yes you are correct, the 500 is not needed. I like to use moderate pressure on the coarser side if needed so for me the 500 is a blessing. I'm happy to own it as it has saved me many hours on a few razors. Period.
I can judge perfectly well with my own findings since I own them all and use them daily all on different razors.

Kris, I told you so, that sweet 16 is nice coming of the 8k....
The WOW factor is definitely there, in fact IMHO the 16 is Shapton's best stone....
My only recommendation is start at 20 laps and see if that is enough to polish out the 8k marks....

Nice to hear it worked out for you :rock:

I have also found that when I use the 16K, followed by my normal 0.5 and 0.25 diamond pastes, that touch ups went from, at most, 7 days to well over 2 weeks. I used pastes exclusively coming off an DMT8EE. I love the 16K and it was a new level of honing. Pastes seem to roll the edge ever so slightly and using a stone to eliminate just one step (the 1.0 paste) has really made a dramatic difference. One of these days the 30K will come my way.:D

Later,
Richard

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Originally Posted by Maximilian

Kevin,

I can judge perfectly well with my own findings since I own them all and use them daily all on different razors.

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I apologize if you feel I am questioning your judgment. I am not. I am rather accustomed to being in places where people are treated as equals. When opposite observations occur it is usually worth the effort to discover what are the parameters that make such happen.

It sure did, but after seeing such results I got this tingling feeling.Mabe I should go see a doctor.Or do you think it could be HAD?

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Originally Posted by dward

Max, how many laps should be done of the Shapton 16K after the Norton 8K?

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Dward,

that's hard to say as every razor will be different. I'm on the same page as Glen as I like to do 15-20 laps and check the edge.
The Shapton 16K is a known performer but the Shapton 4K always gives me the WOW factor too. YMMV and all that..:D

Kevin,

I think that's what forums and threads are for. To discuss and analyze different topics. :D

What many people forget, imo, is that there are so many variables which influence a certain result.

I love the Shaptons but I've already encountered just a few razors that did not like them.
I had to revert to the use of my naturals.
I've just honed one razor yesterday that did not like the coarser shaptons. I had to set a new bevel. Tough Swedish steel. Whatever 500, 1000 or even 2000 Shapton I would use it would start to micro-chip. I went back and forth trying to analyze the why and trying all different kinds of pressure and methods.

I took out my coarser DMT and low and behold it did love the DMT to set the bevel. No questions asked. Go figure. I've had the opposite happen more often.
From the 4K Shapton and up it went perfect and took a really sharp and beautiful edge as I shaved with it last night. But for some reason anything lower with the Shaptons didn't work.

IMO there is no one-hone-for-all but this only goes into effect when you need to hone lots of razors. When owning just a few personal razors it would be overkill to own each and every hone unless you get HAD and love collecting natural stones etc... But that's another story. :D

Ok, this is abit off topic.But it was me that started it,so...Is there any natural stone that would work as a bevel setter?.I mean without doing a million strokes.
Something that would eq. 1000-2000 grit.

I am anxiously awaiting this answer too..
Although I am a Shapton fan I still jump to my Norton 220/1k for restore razors then go to the Shapton 2k, yes I know I don't need too, but I just feel very, very, comfortable setting bevels on the 1k Norton... (old dog new tricks BS ;) )

Well.......I hate to say it, but for eBay specials, I revert to my Norton 220 grit stone frequently and then follow up with the Norton 1000 as I find them a bit more aggressive than my Shapton Glass hones. For routine stuff, the Shapton 500, 1000, 4000, 8000 and 16000 are really great from setting bevels up to finishing. One thing I have found is that many times I will use under 10 strokes on the 16000 and getting great edges. I usually hone at least 50 razors per week and my Shapton Glass hones are getting a significant workout. I do still use my Escher or Nakayam in lieu of the 16000 sometimes too. I also use the 30000 sometimes and sometimes I will finish with a few strokes of chromium oxide or .5 diamond spray on felt. What I really like is how these Shapton's take a lapping and don't wear down near as quick as my Norton Stones do. I have taken the 4K side down to the 8K side on a bunch or Nortons over the years.

You guys know I can't leave a thread like this without saying "Less Strokes are Better".

Have fun,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Ok, this is abit off topic.But it was me that started it,so...Is there any natural stone that would work as a bevel setter?.I mean without doing a million strokes.
Something that would eq. 1000-2000 grit.

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A fast Coticule will do it.

Bart.

I have 8 shapton's plus the Lapping plate. But to answer your question, I use the 1K for setting bevels. I think you could also really use the 4K, 8K and 16K. With those I just mentioned, you'd be good to go, for the most part.

I also have a 30K. Once you get the hang of honing- the 30K will create an amazing edge.:w (Those with poor razor skills need not apply:eek:).

Sometimes I'll use strickly Shapton's- but most of the time I mix in the natural hones depending on what the razor responds to.:gl:

Bart, would that be a hard or soft coticule? I'm abit confused as of the description of coticules...
Thanks

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Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Bart, would that be a hard or soft coticule? I'm abit confused as of the description of coticules...
Thanks

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If it were that easy...:) I would give you a straight answer. But it isn't that easy.
Soft Coticules release garnets rapidly. On harder stones it can be more challenging to raise a decent slurry. That's the obvious difference between hard and soft, but it doesn't predict that much about the rate of steel removal. I have several Coticules that I'd qualify as medium hardness, and yet, their speed varies from very fast to very slow. I also have hard Coticules, among them is not a single fast one. (at least not on hard razor steel). I have one Coticule I'd qualify as soft (it raises slurry merely by honing on it). And yet it is not perculiarly fast.
The only thing I can tell, is that on a fast Coticule, the slurry will start to turn grayish within the first few honing strokes. With a (softer) kichen knife and a bit more pressure that will happen on almost any Coticule, but not with razors which have harder steel and are typically honed with less pressure.

Bart.

Am I wrong, or did you mention in some post that you could specify what kind of coticule you wanted somewhere?

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Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Am I wrong, or did you mention in some post that you could specify what kind of coticule you wanted somewhere?

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Rob Celis of Ardennes Coticule is extremely forthcoming to deal with. He's a member of SRP, and if you PM him about this, I'm sure he will help you in any way he can. Straight Razor Place Forums - View Profile: ArdennesCoticule
He mentioned taking a few days vacation between Christmas and New Year, so he may not respond immediately.

Best regards,
Bart.

+1 on Rob. He's been great to deal with. Along with Bart, an excellent resource on this list regarding Coticules.

Ok, while I'm at the belgian stones.If the yellow are as versatile as you guys say, would you really need a blue one? The reason I ask is that I think it would be really cool to have a complete natural setup aswell as a syntetic.

Thanks

Congrats on getting a nice finisher, it seems like you have gotten your honing to the next level.

If you plan on building a natural progression you should IMHO get the blue too, it's a inexpensive hone, and it does a good job in removing coarse scratch patterns.

I've been thinking about these coticules, Shaptons, ebay specials, bevel setting, honing, finishing with high grid stones vs pastes strops (or both) and strops... what I seem to gather is that you need to develop a "feel" for what's going on during honing, especially with the natural stones.

To get started, synthetic hones sound more straight-forward: do laps on the 1,000, then the 4,000, then the 8,000 and then the 16,000, then paste strop and strop. The more I read about the coticule, the less sure I am that I'd manage to do anything useful with it. :confused:

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Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Ok, while I'm at the belgian stones.If the yellow are as versatile as you guys say, would you really need a blue one? The reason I ask is that I think it would be really cool to have a complete natural setup aswell as a syntetic.

Thanks

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Between the Yellow-with-slurry as a bevel correction hone, and the Yellow-with-water as a finishing hone is a keenness gap, that can be very difficult, if not impossible (depending on the specimen in question) to overcome, without the use of other hones.
The Blue with slurry can boost the keenness of a bevel formed on a Yellow with slurry.
If you finish that on a Yellow with water, you 'll end up with a pretty shaveworthy edge.

But you could just as easily follow the Yellow with slurry by any other hone that makes the bevel sharper. I personally add a Chosera 10K after the Blue, and finish that edge on a Yellow with water.

The Belgian Blue is definitely a very pleasant stone in use, and often underestimated. I use mine a lot.

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Originally Posted by Cornelius

I've been thinking about these coticules, Shaptons, ebay specials, bevel setting, honing, finishing with high grid stones vs pastes strops (or both) and strops... what I seem to gather is that you need to develop a "feel" for what's going on during honing, especially with the natural stones.

To get started, synthetic hones sound more straight-forward: do laps on the 1,000, then the 4,000, then the 8,000 and then the 16,000, then paste strop and strop. The more I read about the coticule, the less sure I am that I'd manage to do anything useful with it. :confused:

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That's because I am so good a explaining simple things in a complicated way...
:D
In fact, honing on the Belgian hones is easy, pleasant, and fairly forgiving to having a somewhat less than perfect honing stroke. Achieving a very decent shaving edge is something that most aspiring honers can achieve within a few hours of practice. A simple honing method with DMT-E , Belgian Blue Whetstone and Coticule - Straight Razor Place Wiki
The quest that makes honing complicated starts later. It's the search for the ultimate edge, that offers incredible swift and close removal of whiskers, without simultaneously removing a layer of skin and that at the same time also offers fair longevity.

Bart.

I read your review of the chosera line, seems like a really sweet hone. Wish I had em all! All in time I guess.The comfort is that I'm in this for life.
Thanks for all your knowledge and help guys, really appriciate it!

Hello Kristoffer. You could get by on this basic set then fill in the gaps later if you wanted.

bj

Nice! Do you really use the 2000 and 6000 often?

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I usually hone at least 50 razors per week

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I've wondered about this a few times. Do you shave test all of them???? I've shave tested up to three razors in single shave, and I find in annoying to do so, so I wonder how many you test in a single shave?

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Originally Posted by Lynn

You guys know I can't leave a thread like this without saying "Less Strokes are Better".

Have fun,

Lynn

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It has taken me some time to figure that out. I heard it on your DVD a year ago but I had to develop some skills to make it happen. I don't know if anyone is old enough to remember the old commercial about when E.F. Hutton talks I listen, but that is the way it is for me when Lynn Abrams talks, I listen.... and learn. Thanks a lot for all the great info Lynn. :tu

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Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin

Nice! Do you really use the 2000 and 6000 often?

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Not very often. The 500, 2K and 6K are there because I have SAD [Shapton Aquisition Disorder]. I will be first in line if they come out with a 60K. Wait a minute I think that is a leather strop.

bj

Sorry to dig up old thread but I'm looking hard into buy Shapton's from the get-go and usually try to bring up old threads instead of starting new one's where possible.

We can make a jump of quadruple grits? (What I mean is...everyone's is jumping from 1000 to 4000!?) I had always heard, and with sandpaper at lower grits working on hunting/kitchen knives, have learned that jumping more than double grit will end up costing you time (and tired hands) in the long run.


Ceramics just cut THAT much faster I suppose?

Warning! Newb post to follow:

Yup, it does seem weird, that big jump from 1k to 4k, but it's pretty much the standard when using synthetic hones on razors. It seems that the semi-standard progression is 1k, 4k, 8k. That's pretty much where the "semi-standard" ends. After the 8k, some guys go to a Coticule, others will go to a 12k Chinese, 16k Shapton, or one of those Japanese naturals I can't pronounce or spell. :)

Note that the 1k is generally only used if you need to set a bevel on a blade.