Curious about the relations ship between honing a taped spine and stropping ...

While stropping the other evening, I starting to think about the effect that stopping has on the edge created by honing which then progressed to taping spines and the effect which has piqued my curiosity some. I am going to try to explain my curiosity as best as I can .... please bear with me!

From all that I have read, when using a taped spine while honing the geometry of the edge is altered slightly from a non-taped spine. Then taking it one step further, using multiple layers of tape in succession to create a double bevel will alter this geometry even more.

When stropping, you lay the blade flat on the strop and strop using only the weight of the blade.

Now that I am beyond the obvious, I am curious on what effect, if any, the edge "sees" when stropping a razor that was honed using tape on the spine? Is the difference in edge geometry from a taped spine so insignificant that stropping will still properly align the edge? What if anything will it do to a double bevel? Will the edge actually touch the strop or again is the diff so insignificant that it doesn't change anything? Am I even making sense? :shrug:

Cheers,

Rick

it has been a lot discussion about this topic.i am very very sure you will get so maney answers and will belong 1 of the confusing team.
Now i do belong to people who thinks buy taping the back of the blade we do change the angle and while we strop instead of sharpneing we dull the edge.Now a big but in there.
this will work if we use paddle strop mostly not the hangning strop
what happens is this while we do use hanging strop doesn't matter how tight we will stretch the strop while blade touches strop it bends small enough angle which takes out mistake on angle of the bladeof the edg e.this is a little confusing but if you think a little you will understand what i am trying to say.
this is the reason people who uses the tape to hone razor actually (mostly)won't get dull edge after stropping.Again this i if you do use 1 layers of tape.if you do use 2-or 3 layers i think this will hurt the edge.
Lets say honer used 3 layers of the tape and honed and as usually we have new angle.if the user tapes with 3 layers of the tape then problem is resolved .no harm done.
this is only my personal opinion
hope it helps.
good luck

I use one layer of tape on all of the razors that I hone and I have honed a lot of them. I remove the tape when I am done honing. Stropping with out the tape hasn't been an issue. Note that Tim Zowada hones with one layer and once shave ready he puts two more layers on for a total of three and then hones further to create a double bevel. He recommends using one layer of tape on spine when stropping but specifies that the only purpose is to protect the Damascus finish on the spine. Here are his instructions.

I am only going to tell you what I have found to be true in practice not therory....
I tape every single spine, on every razor I hone, for myself, and for everyone else (unless they specifically ask me not to)

The change in angle is to small to bother with even figuring out (somebody actually did the math in one thread and it is less the 1/2 a degree)

When I finish up on the hones, if that razor is going to go to a paddle strop I leave the tape on though that process...
I have actually taken the tape off before the paddle strop and have found no difference, there is enough give in the leather that it doesn't really matter...
If I were one to use a balsa pasted strop, I would leave the tape on there for that process...
I take the tape off for all hanging strops....

As to more than one layer of tape my only response would be Why???? I use that process to repair bevels then drop to one layer for proper honing...

I don't use Double bevels never have found a reason too....

Hope that helps you out !!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

When I finish up on the hones, if that razor is going to go to a paddle strop I leave the tape on though that process...
I have actually taken the tape off before the paddle strop and have found no difference, there is enough give in the leather that it doesn't really matter...
If I were one to use a balsa pasted strop, I would leave the tape on there for that process...
I take the tape off for all hanging strops....

As to more than one layer of tape my only response would be Why???? I use that process to repair bevels then drop to one layer for proper honing...

I don't use Double bevels never have found a reason too....

Hope that helps you out !!!

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I don't take the tape off for my paddle with diamond paste either. I did take it off for my felt hanging strop with diamond spray on one razor and no problems.

Glen, that post you gave on repairing damaged ebay blades was a great one. I used the three layers in honing out a frown and then went down to one layer when I got the blade profile where I wanted it. Worked just spiffy.

I have one Zowada and it is a beautiful thing and a great shaver. The only thing I don't like is the double bevel. I guess he must figure it gives the edge more strength ? I haven't had any problems shaving with it but it is just the idea of the double bevel that bothers me somehow. I will leave it as is rather then honing it to a single bevel, not that I mind the work but if I were to ever want to sell it I imagine that it would be better left as it originally came.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't take the tape off for my paddle with diamond paste either. I did take it off for my felt hanging strop with diamond spray on one razor and no problems.

Glen, that post you gave on repairing damaged ebay blades was a great one. I used the three layers in honing out a frown and then went down to one layer when I got the blade profile where I wanted it. Worked just spiffy.

I have one Zowada and it is a beautiful thing and a great shaver. The only thing I don't like is the double bevel. I guess he must figure it gives the edge more strength ? I haven't had any problems shaving with it but it is just the idea of the double bevel that bothers me somehow. I will leave it as is rather then honing it to a single bevel, not that I mind the work but if I were to ever want to sell it I imagine that it would be better left as it originally came.

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Jimmy if I owned a Zowada I would leave the double bevel too, just because that's the way he did it :D pirnciple ya know !!!!!

I did a quick experiment the other day using the scope here and my trusty $10 antique store find razor.

I honed a double bevel using two thicknesses of tape, and checked the resulting edge uder the scope.


Nice!:nj

I then used a canvas hanging pasted strop with 1um diamond to strop that same razor after removing the tape. Then checked under the scope again.

The pasted strop clearly made contact with the double bevel portion of the blade, and right up to the edge.

So, as Glen said, if you use a paddle strop you may have to still tape the spine, but when using a hanging strop (that goes for plain leather too), don't worry, it still makes contact, and it won't fold over the edge or anything.

As a matter of fact I feel that the taped double bevel is very similar to using a pasted hanging strop as far as giving the cutting edge a slightly increased bevel angle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am only going to tell you what I have found to be true in practice not therory....
I tape every single spine, on every razor I hone, for myself, and for everyone else (unless they specifically ask me not to)

The change in angle is to small to bother with even figuring out (somebody actually did the math in one thread and it is less the 1/2 a degree)

When I finish up on the hones, if that razor is going to go to a paddle strop I leave the tape on though that process...
I have actually taken the tape off before the paddle strop and have found no difference, there is enough give in the leather that it doesn't really matter...
If I were one to use a balsa pasted strop, I would leave the tape on there for that process...
I take the tape off for all hanging strops....

As to more than one layer of tape my only response would be Why???? I use that process to repair bevels then drop to one layer for proper honing...

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Imo, that's a complete and accurate answer.
On a hanging strop it makes no difference whatsoever. There's always some slack, even if we aim for reasonable tautness. The variations caused by the human that pulls at the strop and strokes the razor on top, are much bigger than the small angle change of one or two layers of tape.
On a paddle strop, there's still enough give in the leather, for the strop to touch the very edge.
I normally hone without tape, but on a decorated spine, I do use a layer of tape. I also have a double bevel on some of my razors (mostly for the sake of testing hones). I have never noticed any adverse effect of stropping such razors without the tape.

On a piece of pasted Balsa or newspaper on a tabletop, I'd keep the tape (but I'm not using either).

Bart.

Thanks for all the replies, very informative. It is one of those things that I don't think about when going to strop but something I thought about while stropping. In practice I've not noticed a "sharpness / smoothness" difference when shaving (I have a couple that were honed using tape and a couple that were not), just found it an interesting mental thought.

:tu

cheers,

If you take a kitchen knife and put three layers of tape on the spine and then place it on a hone, the edge will not touch the hone. Infact you have to rock it like a seesaw.

Now translate this to a precise razor straight edge and tell me it doesn't matter and I will say you are wrong.

Now when we are talking about one layer of tape, I agree, the angles are probably not significant.

I don't use tape unless I want to deliberately adjust the bevel spine angles for example on a full wedge.

I don't hone razors for money but I can see that a professional honer would not want to damage a customers brand new prize possession.

But for me, the need to see a shiny well honed spine bevel is as important as seeing a sharp edge.

If the spine bevel is not shiny and even, the edge will be poor. If you tape the spine, I don't know , but I feel cheated out of half of the required information.

Just my opinion. But I for one do not think taping a spine adds any value other than a protection effect. In fact I think it must always detract a little from the manufacturers original geometric specification.

Bottom line, one piece of tape doesn't really matter, but any more does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

If you take a kitchen knife and put three layers of tape on the spine and then place it on a hone, the edge will not touch the hone. Infact you have to rock it like a seesaw.

Now translate this to a precise razor straight edge and tell me it doesn't matter and I will say you are wrong.

Now when we are talking about one layer of tape, I agree, the angles are probably not significant.

I don't use tape unless I want to deliberately adjust the bevel spine angles for example on a full wedge.

I don't hone razors for money but I can see that a professional honer would not want to damage a customers brand new prize possession.

But for me, the need to see a shiny well honed spine bevel is as important as seeing a sharp edge.

If the spine bevel is not shiny and even, the edge will be poor. If you tape the spine, I don't know , but I feel cheated out of half of the required information.

Just my opinion. But I for one do not think taping a spine adds any value other than a protection effect. In fact I think it must always detract a little from the manufacturers original geometric specification.

Bottom line, one piece of tape doesn't really matter, but any more does.

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If a fellow has a few razors and hones to maintain them than I wouldn't see any benefit in using the one layer of tape. OTOH, with over one hundred razors keeping track of which were taped and which were not would be a PITA for me.

In addition, it is my supposition that when I get an ebay razor with hone wear on the spine I may be bringing the razor closer to the original geometry then if I didn't use tape.

One thing I will say, the feel of honing is different if you use tape. With the naked spine it is a different kind of feedback on the hone. Using the one layer one quickly gets used to the feel though.

I think we should just keep this one discussion about taping the spine on the original track...
Does it / how does it affect stropping????:w

We all very well know that there are 2 schools of thought on whether you should use tape and we have discused that till we are all blue in the face :D

Personally I would love to hear about pasted Balsa and if anyone has done any experimenting on that since I don't use them myself in it's relationship to a taped spine????

I didn't read the posts preceeding mine, so apoligies up front for that. I will say that I have been surprised, pleasantly, that I did not notice any differences in stropping a taped or untaped edge.

I think this, as well as many other sets of evidence, helped me conclude a few years ago that it is the edge of the edge (fin if we agree such a thing exists) that actually gets stropped and creates draw.

You'll note that a polished bevel will still not create draw unless sharp. Given that, I'd say it is perfectly reasonable to assume that it is in fact only the edge of the edge that receives the stropping improvement and creates draw as a result.

I believe, therefore, that taping a spine has no effect on stropping; for the reasons presented above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

As to more than one layer of tape my only response would be Why????

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From what I have read on here, that would be to compensate for applying a little pressure on the blade while honing, more specifically on dull blades.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

Now when we are talking about one layer of tape, I agree, the angles are probably not significant.

Bottom line, one piece of tape doesn't really matter, but any more does.

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Well wonders never cease!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by English

If you take a kitchen knife and put three layers of tape on the spine and then place it on a hone, the edge will not touch the hone. Infact you have to rock it like a seesaw.

Now translate this to a precise razor straight edge and tell me it doesn't matter and I will say you are wrong.

Now when we are talking about one layer of tape, I agree, the angles are probably not significant.

I don't use tape unless I want to deliberately adjust the bevel spine angles for example on a full wedge.

I don't hone razors for money but I can see that a professional honer would not want to damage a customers brand new prize possession.

But for me, the need to see a shiny well honed spine bevel is as important as seeing a sharp edge.

If the spine bevel is not shiny and even, the edge will be poor. If you tape the spine, I don't know , but I feel cheated out of half of the required information.

Just my opinion. But I for one do not think taping a spine adds any value other than a protection effect. In fact I think it must always detract a little from the manufacturers original geometric specification.

Bottom line, one piece of tape doesn't really matter, but any more does.

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What the hell are you talking about? And why would you tape the spine of a kitchen knife anyways? If one knows how to sharpen a kitchen knife he would know that the spine comes no where near the hone!