The World's Cheapest 30k Hone

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Originally Posted by kevint

But back to balsa what sold you on it Chris

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For me it's a final step I often incorporate into the honing process but even more so, I find it to be the easiest and quickest edge refresher.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Chris L

For me it's a final step I often incorporate into the honing process but even more so, I find it to be the easiest and quickest edge refresher.

Chris L

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yeah, but at the same place they sell basswood. why not that over balsa?

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Originally Posted by kevint

yeah, but at the same place they sell basswood. why not that over balsa?

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I have basswood and I've also made some hard maple blocks that I use with 1 mic and .5 mic diamond sprays. The maple is so hard that after I lapped it using pencil grids, sandpaper and my granite surface plate I can actually use it like a hone (edge leading) and it doesn't bite into the wood or shave any off.

The balsa having a softer surface is different than those. It conforms to the edge and acts more like a strop in that regard.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Chris L

I have basswood and I've also made some hard maple blocks that I use with 1 mic and .5 mic diamond sprays. The maple is so hard that after I lapped it using pencil grids, sandpaper and my granite surface plate I can actually use it like a hone (edge leading) and it doesn't bite into the wood or shave any off.

The balsa having a softer surface is different than those. It conforms to the edge and acts more like a strop in that regard.

Chris L

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All right you have tried them all. cool

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Originally Posted by kevint

All right you have tried them all. cool

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Balsa, Basswood and Hard Maple is as far as I've gone using any woods for strops or hones. I got the basswood at the same craft store in 1/4"x3"x36" dimensions. It definitely works with chrome ox, but since it's much stiffer and the surface doesn't have that softness the balsa does it for me.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by Bart

So, if I understand correctly, you can do a number of CrO touch-ups, till you do a final touch-up that turns out to be ineffective?

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Yes. There is a falling off.

But... keeping in mind that I'm much less systematic than you in my research and observations. :) I guess at some point 2 or 3 months in the razor starts pulling in a way that says to me, go back to the hone. So I do. Perhaps if I went at it with 30 laps on chrome oxide it would bring it back. And perhaps then I'd start seeing diminishing returns. But chrome oxide for me is a smoothener not a sharpener. So when it starts to actually pull, I just go back to the escher for 35 laps each with slurry and with water.

What it really comes down to for me is that I don't think of a few licks here and there on the chromed linen as "touch-ups." I call it that when I'm posting on SRP, for the sake of convention. But in my daily shaving... I agree with Chris that it's just so damn easy. It's like I'm maintaining an edge with three stropping surfaces – plain leather, plain linen, and very faintly chromed linen, all on the same strop – in various combinations, while the water's warming up and the brush is soaking, and then every couple of months or so touching up with the escher (or coticule, also does the trick). 2-3 months is good endurance to my mind, which is why the notion of "weak edges" doesn't really enter my thoughts much except in theoretical discussions.

If I were to hazard a guess what's going on, I'd say I'm getting a tiny amount of rounding from the chrome, so minor that the escher's enough to handle it. But I don't really know.

Perhaps we can get Randy to comment at greater length. He has an enormous amount of experience, uses chrome oxide all the time, and unlike me (but like you) is systematic and scrupulous in his observations.

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

I'd always assumed grit meant particles per inch.
If that were true,
60,000 grit=60,000 particles per inch
=60,000/25.4*1000=2,362,204 particles per metre

1/(2,362,204)=particle size of 4.2e-7 metres

which is roughly 0.5 micron.

Of course that would be too logical, I've seen how different countries/companies have completely different interpretations.:shrug::shrug::shrug:

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I'm afraid it is not true. Long time ago, particles for abrasive products were sifted through a mesh. For very small particles, building a mesh is not possible, but the grit size is derived from a theoretical mesh anyway. Grit refers to the amount of holes per square inch. The thickness of the mesh wire plays a part in that as well. Here's a old thread that geeks out about that topic: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...particles.html

In the end it does not even matter. Stropping on pastes is not purely abrasion. It derives its effectiveness from other principles as well, as any kind of buffing does. Here's a document that sheds some light on it (beware it's not about sharpening, and the document uses a different definitions of terms than we do, here at SRP): http://www.public.asu.edu/~smurshed/...operations.pdf (I'm referring to the the part about "buffing", p.9). I believe this is one of the virtues of pasted stropping. I really is different.

Particle size is only one of the parameters. Particle shape is probably equally important in the outcome, and I wonder about the importance of the substrate. Dylandog stated that his hard canvas (if that's what it is) worked better than leather, balsa and linen. I know in the buffing wheels world, they use felt, but of course they are not sharpening. I 'm eager to find out more about that.

As a final note, I believe we are far too uptight about the edge durability issue. Poorly honed edges that are followed by a fierce honing on a slack CrO pasted strop are not very long lasting. But we are not talking about that. I have found no indications whatsoever, that the use of CrO as we are discussing it here, has any negative impact on the longevity of a razor's edge.
That my pasted touch-ups slowly loose their effectiveness is a perfectly normal occurrence, imho. If they didn't, there would be no need to hone a once honed razor ever again (accidental damage left aside).
The durability issue if simply proof that if you use something without knowledge and without skill, the results are not going to be good. "It is the indian, not the arrow", as my friend Jimmy often puts it.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Yes. There is a falling off.

But... keeping in mind that I'm much less systematic than you in my research and observations. :) I guess at some point 2 or 3 months in the razor starts pulling in a way that says to me, go back to the hone. So I do. Perhaps if I went at it with 30 laps on chrome oxide it would bring it back. And perhaps then I'd start seeing diminishing returns. But chrome oxide for me is a smoothener not a sharpener. So when it starts to actually pull, I just go back to the escher for 35 laps each with slurry and with water.

What it really comes down to for me is that I don't think of a few licks here and there on the chromed linen as "touch-ups." I call it that when I'm posting on SRP, for the sake of convention. But in my daily shaving... I agree with Chris that it's just so damn easy. It's like I'm maintaining an edge with three stropping surfaces – plain leather, plain linen, and very faintly chromed linen, all on the same strop – in various combinations, while the water's warming up and the brush is soaking, and then every couple of months or so touching up with the escher (or coticule, also does the trick). 2-3 months is good endurance to my mind, which is why the notion of "weak edges" doesn't really enter my thoughts much except in theoretical discussions.

If I were to hazard a guess what's going on, I'd say I'm getting a tiny amount of rounding from the chrome, so minor that the escher's enough to handle it. But I don't really know.

Perhaps we can get Randy to comment at greater length. He has an enormous amount of experience, uses chrome oxide all the time, and unlike me (but like you) is systematic and scrupulous in his observations.

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I believe you use it more preemptively than I do. I only touch-up on the CrO when normal stropping looses its ability to restore the razor to full keenness. If I understand correctly, you are in the habit of doing a few swipes on the CrO, every now and then, whenever you feel like it. (which might be much better than my approach).
When you say 2-3 months, can you translate that in a number of shaves?

I might run tests with CrO on different substrates myself. It sounds like fun, and I already have a test set of all the same razors, so it should be easy to set something up.:)

Best regards,
Bart.

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Originally Posted by RayG

Sometime back I saw a video of the Mastro sharpening a razor using muliple passes on a LONG loom strop with CrO. Lots of passes.

That led me to thinking - does it really matter how you progress through what expensive stones? As long as you have a bevel, could you end up with the same edge after a couple of hundred passes on CrO, as you would progressing through stones, THEN finishing with CrO?

I have also seen Robert (papabull) hitting a burred edge with red paste on a belt, followed by a finer paste, then finishing with multiple passes on 0.25 diamond paste on a loom strop. Same great result.

I'd be curious to hear what folks think.

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You mean like in the photo below? :D

I have always read common wisdom on here about the ephemeral nature of edges finished on pastes compared to hones. My own experience, to this day, of using pastes squares with what English and others have asserted -- sure, you get scary sharp, but it forces you to hit the hones more often.

However, seeing Mastro Livi stropping my blade in his workshop on a hugely long (longer than cricket bat) loom strop thick with CrOx makes me question conventional wisdom (even though my own results confirm that view). As you can see below, Mastro Livi set to my blade with long long fast strokes. Up and down for about 100 passes! And it was vigorous. He was sweating afterwards. Now, that would make me think: that edge is either going to be an 'overhoned' wire edge, or extremely fragile and I'm going to need to hone it soon enough.

Completely wrong. I didn't have to hone that edge for a year. Seriously. It became my weekend shaver and for 50 or so shaves (one a week for a year) it was scary sharp. I am still puzzled over how this can be.

Perhaps it's the nature of the steel that allows for such aggressive paste stropping? The steel is Damascus (ATS34 and 440 folded together), so is harder than your standard carbon steel. Would this make a difference? Possibly, but since I witnessed it I've thought it has as much to do with Mastro Livi's experience and technique. This is the guy who strops on the palm of his had at lightening speed -- it's a blur. I figure the pressure, the technique, the level-ness of the blade as he strops on the loom must be pretty much perfect to put an edge on the blade as even and robust as if it came off a stone.

Good thread here! For the new guys here I would suggest you try this CrOx on balsa. It is simple to make, effective in use and convenient in size. I use chrome Oxide on all my razors. The edge it produce's agrees with my skin. YMMV.

I agree with Bart that there are many factors other than the size of the abrasive grain. But it all boils down to the simple fact that you need to try the abrasives on a razor to determine what will happen. An example is that I spoke with Damon this evening and he swears that Zam is much better than CrOx. So I asked him if he had tried Fabulustre yet!:D

I think that the issue of edge retention is primarily determined by the composition of the steel, the fineness of the edge after honing and the softness of the substrate that the abrasive is pasted on. Those are the primary determinants of the edge life, IMHO. Skill in using the tools also make a difference, naturally.

Experiment, learn and share...and have fun!:)

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Originally Posted by majurey

You mean like in the photo below? :D

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Yes, exactly..

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Originally Posted by majurey

Perhaps it's the nature of the steel that allows for such aggressive paste stropping? The steel is Damascus (ATS34 and 440 folded together)

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If I recollect correctly, those modern ATS-steels are the first steels that were actually developed for cutting applications. They're extremely wear resistant. (and for that reason equally resistant to the hones and pastes). Maybe that explains your observations.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

I believe you use it more preemptively than I do. I only touch-up on the CrO when normal stropping looses its ability to restore the razor to full keenness. If I understand correctly, you are in the habit of doing a few swipes on the CrO, every now and then, whenever you feel like it. (which might be much better than my approach).

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Yes, that's it more or less. I do 5 strokes or so when the edge starts to feel rough. If I feel like I have to strop between passes for example that's a sign to me that five or ten licks on the chrome oxide are in order. When it pulls, on the other hand, I go back to the finishing stone.

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Originally Posted by Bart

When you say 2-3 months, can you translate that in a number of shaves?

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Probably between 25 and 30 shaves, depending on the razor.

I made one with slurry from a soft shobu-sougoroh(sp?) polish stone. Eh? maybe there is just not enough actual abrasive there, though i put n several coats and dried it with a heat gun. Or maybe just not enough laps.

Ever use left over slurry as a strop paste

I've thought about using slurry as a strop paste, Kevin but to date I have not decided on which medium would be best to mix it with. The only slurry powder I have is yellow coticule powder. I have about a solid tablespoon of yellow coticule powder I saved from lapping a bunch of vintage coticules in succession and evaporating the water from the clean rinse bucket I used to rinse off the coticule slurry. Chrome ox is so fine it mixes well with oil to make a paint. Coticule powder given the fact that it's coarser I would think wouldn't form such a thin smooth paste? Do you have some ideas about what to mix it with? The only reason I'd want to even try it is simply for experimentation sake.

Chris L

I have been folllowing this thread and researching others re: chromium oxide and strops. I still did not get a feeling of what the difference is between a paddle strop made of leather vs. balsa. It seems balsa is preferred for diamond pastes. Is there a difference for chromium oxide when used on a wood-backed leather or balsa paddle strop? (I intend to use it after a 12K stone. I use a linen then leather hanging strop before each shave.)
P.S. Tony did mention a different feel, more draw with the leather, but is there an actual different result in terms of sharpness, smoothness, etc. between the two?
Thanks,
Dave

I think a lot of the difference is that you can find balsa wood in convenient sizes in any hobby shop. Finding a nice piece of leather not so much. More than that, it doesn't take ANY skilz to glue a piece of balsa wood onto a piece of plywood or the likes (or you can even use it without backing). You might be able to screw up gluing leather to wood (probably have to put some effort into it though).

Not to try to hijack the thread or take away from the tension...but what about CrO on felt pads. Who out there uses felt as a medium?

Here is something with just a little twist to it..
My wife was recently in the city and I sent her to Lee Valley.. she picked up some Chrome Ox sandpaper
its a green paper that looks like it is on a plastic sheeting (mylar?) anyway I cut a strip of it to match my paddle strop and attached it with tape.. did about 20 stropping laps and checked the edge... polished to a high shine
tried a shave and it was very nice and smooth
not sure if I should attach it to a piece of glass with water as suction to hold in place or just keep using it on top of my leather paddle strop.
I had some Lee Valley contaminated CO and covered it over with the paper.. which should be true to its grit size

any input? anyone do anything like this before?

3M Micro-Abrasives for Sharpening - Lee Valley Tools
this is the link to the product.. I purchased a couple of each.. never tried the others yet.

"Hone" can be a verb or a noun. The use of wood with polishing compounds goes back a long way. Think of it as a trailing hone.

Hey Chris,

I am just curious what grit you use to sand the balsa to smooth it out before applying the CO?

Thanks,
Zac

Good to hear from you, Zac.

You don't have to get extremely fine. I've used regular sheets of sandpaper for wood and have gone only as far as 400. 220 left a smooth finish as well and would be adequate.

Chris L