Initial Shapton Impressions...

Well, I've spent the better part of two days now honing on the new Shaptons. I'm very impressed with the quality of edge they produce. Some thoughts and questions...

It seems like the Shaptons will give you enough feedback that you can tell when you're done with that grit just by the feel and sound... When you very first start using a stone, you get kind of an abrasive feedback in the feel as well as an abrasive sound. The water doesn't flow over the blade or suck it to the stone, either. As you progress, the feel becomes more smooth, the sound goes away, and the water flows evenly over the blade. At first, I thought this meant that the swarf was clogging the pores in the ceramic and that the stone needed to be rinsed/cleaned, but doing so made no difference; the feedback was still smooth after cleaning the stone. Am I correct on the above feedback=done with hone? It sure seems that way. The DMT's seemed to always have an abrasive feel and sound, regardless of how "done" the blade was on that grit.

I'm still having a hard time getting my X stroke down (yes, I did round the edges of the Shaptons off when I lapped them). So I've been using a heel-leading, straight down the stone stroke. Am I missing out on edge quality by doing it this way instead of an X stroke? I know that I'll eventually have to get the X stroke down pat for smilers, etc., but that's gonna have to wait for now. The blades I've been honing all have straight, no frown no smile, edges.

One last question... should the swarf "skid marks" ( for lack of a better term) be even across the entire width of the hone? It seems like I always had an area on each stone that had more concentrated skid marks than others, i.e., majority of the skid marks on the right side of the 1k stone, majority of the skid marks down the middle on the 4k stone, etc.. I did make sure the stones were lapped completely flat, too. I ask because the skid marks on my paddle strop are completely even on every diamond paste size, except the 1 micron, and that's because the leather isn't completely level on that side. So I'm wondering if uneven skid marks on the shaptons means I'm doing something wrong.

Well, enough of my rambling. :) I think I'll go see if I can find something else to sharpen...

Getting ready to pull the trigger on the same Shapton package and seeing your posts today have been a double edge sword (razor). Intimidation level raised from the "Shave-off" post, and I guess a little confidence raised from this one.
Anyhow, keep it coming!!!
Thanks
Boyd

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Originally Posted by Willbeblood

Getting ready to pull the trigger on the same Shapton package and seeing your posts today have been a double edge sword (razor). Intimidation level raised from the "Shave-off" post, and I guess a little confidence raised from this one.
Anyhow, keep it coming!!!
Thanks
Boyd

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Thanks, Boyd. :)

Yeah, I thought for sure my first Shapton sharpened blade was gonna be a sweet shave. I was very surprised when it took one look at my chin whiskers and said "uh uh".

One little niggling thought I had in the back of my mind during the sharpening of that blade was how it seemed so much sharper off of the 1k stone than it did off the 8 and then the 16k stone. I know everyone hates the HHT as a benchmark (especially since a ragged edge -like what you can get off a 1k stone- can easily fool it), but it *was* passing the HHT like crazy off the 1k stone, and it *felt* very sharp. The hairs were splitting like they had their backs broken off of the 1k. Off of the 16k, I had to coax them much more. I attributed that to the blade edge being less jagged, but it turns out it was just flat out not as sharp. Lesson learned.

It's funny how simple the theory of honing is and how much more complicated it can be in practice. We had a good example of that yesterday. CarrieM had honed several of her straights w/o problem and they moved right along. Yesterday she was struggling to get the one she was working on to show any signs of sharpening and she was using the same hones and technique. This is where experience plays a hand in honing, knowing when to change techniques and/or hones or just to have more patients.

I don't have the Shapton glass I have the pro series. I know they are a different formula and I don't know if they behave in a similar fashion. When I first came around long time honers suggested that the Norton might be better for beginning honers because they said the glass stones were more subtle in the feedback department. I can vouch that the pro is more subtle to my hand.

I don't really leave "skid marks" unless I am using a lot of pressure. I do leave swarf and it is not all the way across the blade but might be pushed out towards the point by the flow of the water. I use a spray bottle liberally and I almost always use the X pattern.

I have had good luck using pyramids with my pros just as I do with my Nortons. I will do a 5k/8k pyramid before I go to the 15k. As always I make sure that the bevel is where it needs to be before I go to the 5k. (pro series doesn't have a 4k) To be honest I like the Norton 4k/8k better then the Shapton pro. That may change as time goes on but that is where it's at right now.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't have the Shapton glass I have the pro series. I know they are a different formula and I don't know if they behave in a similar fashion. When I first came around long time honers suggested that the Norton might be better for beginning honers because they said the glass stones were more subtle in the feedback department. I can vouch that the pro is more subtle to my hand.

I don't really leave "skid marks" unless I am using a lot of pressure. I do leave swarf and it is not all the way across the blade but might be pushed out towards the point by the flow of the water. I use a spray bottle liberally and I almost always use the X pattern.

I have had good luck using pyramids with my pros just as I do with my Nortons. I will do a 5k/8k pyramid before I go to the 15k. As always I make sure that the bevel is where it needs to be before I go to the 5k. (pro series doesn't have a 4k) To be honest I like the Norton 4k/8k better then the Shapton pro. That may change as time goes on but that is where it's at right now.

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I'm trying not to use any pressure at all. Your comment about the water flow makes me think that there might be a lack of water on the area of the stone where the skid marks are appearing. Maybe they're not lapped as flat as I thought...

Guess I'm gonna have to get that darn X pattern down.

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Originally Posted by FloorPizza

I'm trying not to use any pressure at all. Your comment about the water flow makes me think that there might be a lack of water on the area of the stone where the skid marks are appearing. Maybe they're not lapped as flat as I thought...

Guess I'm gonna have to get that darn X pattern down.

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IMHO it depends a lot on the shape of the blade. My good behaving blades leave "wide patches" of swarf on the 8k Shapton, my not-so-well behaving re-ground wedge that requires "extreme rolling X" leaves fairly thin skid marks behind.

Shapton says too little water may lead to glazing but that should not be the culprit of your problems? :shrug: Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Shapton GlassStones

Are you sure the edge lost sharpness going from the 1k to the 16k? Did you strop the edge after the 16k then try the HHT? I can get the same results (1k Shap pops hairs) then hone up the ladder finally with a finishing stone. Fails HHT right off the finishing stone. Stropping and/or chrome ox stropping reveals the shaving sharpness in no time.

Others have discussed a once passing HHT edge on lower or mid grit stones losing that ability on higher grit.

But, you said you shaved with it and got a less than stellar shave so.....:thinking:

Of course you know this is giving all the anti-HHT guys fuel for their fires.;)

For blades that can behave on a wide stone, I hone the same way you do (heel leading on the hone). Same effect as X pattern since the striations are angled in relation to the edge (as long as the whole edge is being hit on both sides of the blade).

What are you lapping the Shaptons with? I wouldn't worry about the swarf marks if your marker test, microscope and/or any other tests you use are revealing that you're honing the entire edge as you should.

Chris L

Your shapton's did get an initial lapping I assume to the point where surface tension of the water was broken evenly all across them so no beading of water when it was applied?

I recently acquired the same setup as you and its been great for me. I've found that I have actually been applying alot more pressure on the shapton's than I would have on a natural stone (or a low grit DMT for that matter but DMT's are nuts heh)? am I the only one? (ending each grit with light strokes of course)

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Originally Posted by Chris L

Are you sure the edge lost sharpness going from the 1k to the 16k? Did you strop the edge after the 16k then try the HHT? I can get the same results (1k Shap pops hairs) then hone up the ladder finally with a finishing stone. Fails HHT right off the finishing stone. Stropping and/or chrome ox stropping reveals the shaving sharpness in no time. The stropping situation you mention is exactly why I posted the "does the stropping speed matter?" poll. It didn't seem like stropping made any difference on this darn blade..

Others have discussed a once passing HHT edge on lower or mid grit stones losing that ability on higher grit.

But, you said you shaved with it and got a less than stellar shave so.....:thinking:

Of course you know this is giving all the anti-HHT guys fuel for their fires.;) D'oh! Like they need any more! :)

For blades that can behave on a wide stone, I hone the same way you do (heel leading on the hone). Same effect as X pattern since the striations are angled in relation to the edge (as long as the whole edge is being hit on both sides of the blade). I have tried to get this question answered for so long... thank you! And before I get a bunch of "you blind newb! it's been discussed a jillion times!" replies, I really have looked for it.

What are you lapping the Shaptons with? I wouldn't worry about the swarf marks if your marker test, microscope and/or any other tests you use are revealing that you're honing the entire edge as you should. A DMT 1200 (8E to be exact). I'm using a pencil grid, and lapping until all marks are removed, then carefully rounding off the very edges of the stone.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by FreyGrimrod

Your shapton's did get an initial lapping I assume to the point where surface tension of the water was broken evenly all across them so no beading of water when it was applied? Yeah, lapped them as described above before first use, and another three times since. : /

I recently acquired the same setup as you and its been great for me. Glad to hear that!I've found that I have actually been applying alot more pressure on the shapton's than I would have on a natural stone (or a low grit DMT for that matter but DMT's are nuts heh)? am I the only one? (ending each grit with light strokes of course)

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Gents, thanks for the replies, help, and advice. In between my caffeine fueled posts this a.m., I've been doing some more honing. I took the stubborn kitty back to the (freshly lapped) 1k shapton for quite a few laps. Becoming frustrated at the complete lack of results, I grabbed the DMT 1200 and did a few laps. The blade is now very sharp. TNT positive, so a few more passes. Now I have "broken back" HHT results. I had been able to get the same HHT results yesterday off of the 1k shapton, but today it totally eludes me.

Note that I have taken this same blade previously through DMT 1200, DMT 8000, Chinese 12k, .25 diamond, and it was one of my top shavers. It stayed HHT positive throughout the entire progression on the DMT's, and off the diamond paste. And wow, what a shaver it was. It was *almost* comparable to my freshly honed Lynn blade. But I am (so far) completely unable to get the darn thing sharpened on the Shaptons. I had purposely dulled it to try out the Shaptons, cause I knew what a great shave it was capable of giving.