Honing assistance please

Hello Gents,

I am attempting to hone one of the antique shop razors I picked up last weekend. I am using a Norton combo stone of unknown grit (it is dark grey on the “rough” side and orange on the “smooth” side). I started by gently “bread knifing” the razor’s edge-just to ensure the edge was straight. I then began a series of x pattern strokes using very light pressure- just enough to keep the blade in contact with the stone. I am only using the grey side of the stone at this point, I plan on going to the orange after the bevel is set across the entire edge.

The bevel was re-established in the heel area first, working inward. I figured this would continue all the way across the blade, but eventually the bevel was re-established at the toe, working inward. The middle area (about 20% of the total blade length at this point) still reflected light and was not sharp. At this point I suspected that the uneven honing might be due to the stone being “dished” in the middle, and began a more “flattened” X pattern to expose the blade to a larger surface of the stone (I hope this makes sense). This seemed to make a difference, as I noticed the middle area getting smaller in length as well as reflecting less light. I was happy with the progress I was making.

I continued honing and while the middle “dull” section got smaller, there is still an area that reflects light and is not sharp. The sharp areas “drag” and cut into my thumbnail when drawn across the nail surface, but the middle area glides across it, so I have 2 indications that the middle section is not sharp. The problem is that it seems like the honing progress has stopped, the middle section is tiny (about 10 % or so) but the bevel has not been re-established there yet.

I have considered using an alternate stroke that concentrates only on the middle section, but I am worried that the result will be an inconsistent bevel that will cause more problems in the long run. I guess what I am wondering is, if I am not seeing improvement, what are my options at this point? Keep on keeping on, or modify what I am doing?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Adam

[QUOTE=Wakizashi;318358]Hello Gents,

I am attempting to hone one of the antique shop razors I picked up last weekend. I am using a Norton combo stone of unknown grit (it is dark grey on the “rough” side and orange on the “smooth” side). .
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Any suggestions are appreciated.

Adam
[/QUOTE

HI at first welcome to SRP
i DID READ above and want to tell you please please stop Now.
if you don't know what grit your norton is then what are you going to do or trying to acheive.Please find out what you have(tools) then let us know.we will try guide you right direction.without knowing what tools you have i really don't think anyone really can help you or guide.i hope i am not rude toward you.Welcome again

Is it the same way on both sides of the blade?

Like Hi bud said you have to know what you are honing with for best results. From your mention of breadknifing and the TNT I assume you have done a bunch of reading on the forum and in the SRP Wiki ?

There are honing tutorials in the Wiki here and some very good videos on honing by Lynn and Heavydutysg here.

You have to be careful you don't put a frown in that blade if you focus on the center. I don't breadknife unless it is absolutely necessary and then I try to end up with a slightly smiling blade.

Here is a bit of good info in the barber's manual from the SRP help files.

:gl:

Welcome Adam.

Based upon your description, I think you are using this hone:
Norton Stones Store - ICS8 Combination Fine/Coarse India Stone

Is that correct?

If so, this is an oil stone, and not the most suitable for razor honing, as hi_bud_gl already pointed out. However, if you make sure it is flat, you might be able to create a good bevel on that razor. After that you'll need a dedicated hone, capable of creating the extremely fine edge a razor needs, without chipping that edge while you're pushing the limits. A Norton 4K/8K combination water stone is a very good choice for that, but it's another hone than your "orange-blue" Norton.

I'm not so sure if "breadknifing" you razor was the right thing to do, or even necessary for your purposes, but now that you have, it's important that you establish a nice, even and keen bevel again, before you can move ahead.

With the problem, as you describe it, it is highly likely that the blunt middle part of the bevel, is not making good contact with the hone. The main reason for that, is because the adjacent parts of the edge are in contact with the abrasive surface of the hone, before the blunt part is.
Many new razor honers often fail to see that in order to get the low spots, you need to remove steel of the high spots. Even if you managed to touch the low part with a narrower hone, you would only be introducing the frown back into the edge.

The smaller the low (in your case also dull) part of the edge becomes, the larger the high part, and by consequence, the slower you will progress. Honing such edges is a superb recipe for frustration.

Just stay on it till the entire edge shaves arm hair. With the fine side of your hone, that should be a reachable goal. Don't, I repeat, don't concentrate solely on the dull spot.

Good luck,

Bart.

" I suspected that the uneven honing might be due to the stone being “dished” in the middle,"

This quote from our new member and originator of this thread.

No matter what grit stone you are using, previous posters reply, taken into account. Your stone must be flat to achieve and even bevel. How much "dish" is in the hone will tell you how much lapping you must do to get that hone flat. But before to spend a lot of time on the particular hone trying to flatten it, ask yourself if you really want to use that hone for your razor? After you have read all the info on honing here and which hones most members use you will have a better understanding of which way to go. I am new also to str8s and honing but have had good luck with the DMT 1200 to set the bevel on an antique store purchase, followed by the Norton 4k/8k, soon to be followed by a Chinese 12k, strop and test shave. There are a few other variations discussed here and at SRP, but you might as well use the tried and true hones that others have worked thru before. Good luck on your adventure.

Mark

The stone is an ICS8, thank you Bart.

Bud, no offense taken- I realize there is much more to the procedure, all I am trying to accomplish is to put a straight, beveled edge on the razor. Don't take this the wrong way, but the way I see it, I could do that with anything from about 320 grit sandpaper up to a shapton 30,000 grit stone- the difference , of course, being the time it would take! So the tool I am using is (at this point) irrelevant.

Nun2sharp- not too sure what you mean by this. My sharpening "stroke" is one pass in each direction, so the amount of wear is (in theory) equal on both sides of the blade. If you are referring to the location of the dull spot, it is almost in the exact center of the blade, and the sharp areas on either side will shave hair off my arm.

Jimmy- this is my concern as well. That was the reason I breadknifed in the first place- I wanted a straight edge- I would hate to wreck it by honing just the middle.

Bart- everything you said makes sense- in particular the timeline comment- I will continue honing until the entire edge is beveled and then move on to the fine side of my stone. Thank you.

I am planning on getting a Norton 4/8 combo, so this exercise is mainly to develop a feel for honing strokes, pressure, and patience! I do not expect to get the razor shave ready off this stone, just trying to gain some experience.

Thanks for your comments.

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

Don't take this the wrong way, but the way I see it, I could do that with anything from about 320 grit sandpaper up to a shapton 30,000 grit stone- the difference , of course, being the time it would take! So the tool I am using is (at this point) irrelevant.



Adam

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The problem is it is relevant.You will not be able to put bevel with below 1000 grit stone.you will make some bevel which is not for straight razor.for knife you would be ok not for razor
hope this help

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

Nun2sharp- not too sure what you mean by this. My sharpening "stroke" is one pass in each direction, so the amount of wear is (in theory) equal on both sides of the blade. If you are referring to the location of the dull spot, it is almost in the exact center of the blade, and the sharp areas on either side will shave hair off my arm.

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He is asking if the edge (dull and sharp areas are the same on both sides of the blade/edge). Is it dull in the center on one side AND dull in the center on the other side when you look at it (each side of the bevel). If not, it would be an indication that your blade is warped and possibly not the stone -- stone flat, blade bowed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

I could do that with anything from about 320 grit sandpaper up to a shapton 30,000 grit stone- the difference , of course, being the time it would take! So the tool I am using is (at this point) irrelevant.

---

I agree with that statement. You might be waisting more steel than strictly necessary, and you might end up with a coarsely scratched bevel that needs extra attention at the next level. But the major thing is that you end up with two flat bevel panes that run all the way to the apex of the blade. How you get there doesn't matter. (provided that you don't ruin the temper of the blade, but that's not an issue with a handcrafted approach). I think it would take years on the 30K, but that's beside the point.;)

I would use that hone with oil though.

Bart.

I think i am missing something in here?
Are we talking about putting bevel on straight razor?
Who else is uses 325 grit to put bevel on straight razor please let me know.i would be really interested on that approach?
what will be next ?400,600,1000,finaly 4k/8k right? of course i am talking straight razor?

Why not start 1000 and move forward?
good luck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I think i am missing something in here?
Are we talking about putting bevel on straight razor?
Who else is uses 325 grit to put bevel on straight razor please let me know.i would be really interested on that approach?
what will be next ?400,600,1000,finaly 4k/8k right? of course i am talking straight razor?

Why not start 1000 and move forward?
good luck

---

I am.
Most of my razors come from Ebay. I like buying heavily rusted razors with little hone wear for about €5. Then I restore them. Usually those razors have serious corrosion pitting at the edge. Because of that I have to remove half or more of the bevel. Removing a heavy frown might demand a similar approach. I don't like to spend all day rebuilding a bevel, so I start off at a DMT 325, which is also my hone of choise do to serious and quick "breadknifing". Than I reestablish the bevel shape on the 325. Next I go to the DMT 600. I usually finish bevel formation on a Coticule with slurry, or on a DMT 1200.
Whenever 10 to 15 minutes of honing doesn't get the job done during the bevel creation stage, I normally jump a grit lower, unless I really think I'm nearly there, but I'm often mistaken about "being very close to completing a bevel".:shrug:

You may now call me a "razor butcher"...:gaah:

On a seviceable, yet dull razor I usually start at a Coticule with slurry, or a well-used DMT1200.


Bart.

I have re-read this thread a few times now, and I see this as being the biggest problem.

The bevel was re-established in the heel area first, working inward. I figured this would continue all the way across the blade, but eventually the bevel was re-established at the toe, working inward. The middle area (about 20% of the total blade length at this point) still reflected light and was not sharp. At this point I suspected that the uneven honing might be due to the stone being “dished” in the middle, and began a more “flattened” X pattern to expose the blade to a larger surface of the stone (I hope this makes sense). This seemed to make a difference, as I noticed the middle area getting smaller in length as well as reflecting less light. I was happy with the progress I was making.

You are working the ends against the middle so to speak, you never gave us any indication of the initial spine wear, so you might just be recreating the original problem here again... Besides the fact the working with an "Dished' stone creates it own set of problems, along with the fact these are fast cutters so each stroke emphasizes the un-even wear that much worse....Think of this like driving down an icy rutted road if you just keep following the same path the ruts just get deeper..You need to grade the road and start on a nice even surface.....

Using this stone and razor for practice is one thing, but the expectation should be a well worn spine and bevel... You would probably be better off going to wet-r-dry sandpaper on a level flat surface if you want to even the bevel up...Then you would have a better chance of bringing this one to a shave ready condition when you get your 4k/8k....

Bud- It is important to understand that I am not talking about honing a new or nearly new razor- this edge was very dull and needed to start from scratch so to speak. Bart explained the issue quite well, he and I are on the same page here and I hope his explanation was clearer than mine. Thank you Bart.

Quick/nun2sharp- The bevel is the same on both sides- on the left and right sides, as well as the heel and toe of the edge. I don't think there is warpage in the blade, if anything I would suspect my stone.

gssixgun- you reinforced what Bart said earlier about needing to remove the heel/toe areas before the middle can be re-beveled, and I think you guys are right on the money. I spent some more time on the hone last night, and did not see any measurable improvement. I have concluded that while I might be able to get there eventually, there is too much metal to make it worthwhile on the stone I have. This is excaserbated by the razor's grind- it is not a full hollow- more like 1/2 or 3/4, resulting in a far larger bevel and more spine contact. I am also concerned about the possibility that my stone is dished.

I will be buying the Norton combo with the 200/1000 and 4000/8000 stones, so I am going to quit and pick up where I left off when those get here. My old Norton will go back with my Gunsmithing tools.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Adam

The Norton 220/1000 will be almost worthless for razors. They are to slow. Use sandpaper instead. I use my Norton 1000 as a final lapping stone for my Norton 4000/8000 and that's about it for the 1000.

May I suggest using wet/dry sandpaper, used wet, 500 then 1000 grit, to re-establish that bevel? It cuts very fast, more abrasive grains per square inch. Just be sure to place it on a flat surface,... like a flat hone.

Randy,

The 220 norton is slow? That is a surprise. I still plan on buying the Norton set, but saw a post about this DMT clearance:

https://www.woodcraft.com/product.as...FamilyID=20916

and had to order that set.

I may give the sandpaper thing a try if I get tired of waiting, it can't hurt at thios pint, and if it is as fast as you say that would definitely be the way to go.

Thanks!

Adam

:D See I find the 220-1000 Norton to be my goto stone for bevel restorations, yes there are faster cutters, but I have never seemed to like them...