hones: considering 3 setups

Hi all, I only have a DMTD8C and a Chinese12K so far. My goals are to keep my current razors sharp and later sharpen factory bought razors. I've spent a lot of time reading the forums and below are the 3 setups I'm considering:

DMT D8C (I have one)
Norton 4k/8k $65
Norton Prep Stone $15
Chinese 12K (I have one)
C12K slurry stone $8 (if Zib still has any)
-----
$88 + shipping

Pros: cheap, gets the job done, used by many.
Con: not quiet the absolute best results (Although great results in capable hands and with the right pastes.)

DMT D8C (I have one)
B Blue 8x3 $70
B Coticule 8x3 $255
Coticule Slurry S. $24
box for Coticule $19
Chinese 12K (I have one)
C12K slurry stone $8 (if Zib still has any)
-----
$376 + shipping

Pro: Legendary and versatile Coticule. There's something special about having all natural stones.
Cons: Expensive, not sure what grit you'll get.

Shptn DGLP $284
Shptn 4K $55
Shptn 8K $97
Shptn 16K $99 (can buy later because I have C12K)
-----
$535

Pros: Room for expansion in both directions (1K, 30K), consistent quality and grit.
Con: Expensive. Spent all that money and still have Shapton Pro series envy (DRLP:$489, 5K:$82, 8K:$102, 15K:$129 = $802)

I know there are many more options but I stayed with what seems to be more mainstream and readily available. I'm also not considering pastes and Chomium Ox. at this point: I'm saving that for later. I'm leaning towards option 1 or 2. Am I on the right track?

Thanks

option 2 and why you have t ohave 8*3 coticle?instead of 8/3 go get smaller combo one.i bought a good combo stone less then 100 you will save almost 150.now why you need box for coticle?slurry you ca nfind cheaper option too.buy spending less then 150 you can have option 2 and my advise use chro2 too not expensive and very helpful .good luck

Could be that all you really need is a 4 (or 5) and an 8.

I would rather have a coticule than a dglp

All of these would work for you, but you probably know this already. Of course, There is a big difference in the $$ between the Norton and Shapton system. If money is not an issue, I would vote for the Shapton system. This is basically the system I use and I love it as do many other members.

I started with the BBW and a Coticule and have since moved on to the Shaptons. If this is something you think you might eventually do, then you should go with the Shaptons now.

Obviously, you've done your research. All three would work, but I would vote for the Shaptons because I feel you will go there eventually.

Steve

I got a 6x1.5 coticle from Classic Shaving for about $55 and its big enought to start with. After all, even though the Coticle is great, not everyone will like it, so why pay so much for your first one?

Another good buy is a Spyderco UF, it put a great edge and is cheap so if you don't like it you won't have braken the bank.:gl:

Hi all. Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't considered a smaller coticule because honing is hard enough that I want all chances on my side by having a hone that covers the whole blade. The price is considerably different though so I'll think about that.

About combination Coticule / BBW stones: because they are rare I believe they are more expensive than buying the 2 seperately (same surface area of course).

Thanks
Khat

You could easily go with Shapton 4K, 8K and 16K and have a great set up. You already have the DMT which will lap the Shaptons quite well. Later, if you wanted to, you could branch out into the natural stones (coticule, escher, Japanese etc.) or a 30K Shapton. To address one of your "cons", the Shapton Pro series is not necessarily more desirable for our purposes. In fact, at least one highly respected Honemeister with extensive Shapton experience prefers the Glass stone to the Pro at a finishing level ie: 15K Pro vs 16 K Glass. I think that the general opinion is that the actual abrasive (comparing equivalent grit sizes)used in the two lines is very similar, you just get a thicker piece with the Pro line.

You could also go the "one from column A and one from column B" route, if you chose to, with great results. Maybe a Norton 4/8 or the corresponding Shaptons and a coticule for example.

If I had to chose on this particular day I would go for a DMT D8E continuous plate for setting bevels and the Norton 4k and 8k single grit, not the combo. If I wanted a higher grit then the Chinese 12 either the Shapton 15 pro or the 16 glass. If I was going for a coticule it would be a 6X2 natural. Already having the D8C I would forget the GDLP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khat

Pro: Legendary and versatile Coticule. There's something special about having all natural stones.
Cons: Expensive, not sure what grit you'll get.

---

Not important! All Coticule stones sold by our vendors for straight razor use are excellent for straight razor honing!
You don't have to think in terms of 'grit numbers' when dealing with natural hone stones. Our Coticule stones have proved their value since 150 years ;) .

If you have the DMT and the C12K I would just get the norton 4/8 and a 2X8 coticule. If you have the DMT I see no need for the prep stone and as for the slury stone I haven't used mine but twice. I go from the norton 8000 to the 2X8 coticule with water only. As for the 12K slury I know nothing about them. If I could start over though I would look hard at the shaptons.

Don

Really great advice! Thanks everyone.

The DGLP is definitely my problem with the Shaptons so if I don't need it then I'm definitely much more interested.

A 6" x 2" Coticule seems like a good compromise too!

Much to think about :-)

Thanks
khat

There is always a good reason that the pros use the equipment they do: it works, and it works well. After hearing that two very respected honemeisters around here use the Shapton cerramic on glass, I went ahead and ordered them. I figured I was in this hobby for the long term, and wanted one of the (arguably) best setups available today.

Yes, I'm aware that there are many, many honemeisters out there that use nothing but natural stones, others use different brands of synthetics, but overall, it seems that the honemeisters that use the Shaptons are very vocal and pleased with the results they get.

My vote: get the Shapton ceramic on glass 1k, 4k, 8k, and 16k, and you won't have to worry about feeding your HAD for a while. This is what I did, anyway, and I'm not a bit sorry I did.

About two to three weeks ago, coticules jumped about 50% in price. I don't know if they'll ever come down or not, maybe it's just a seasonal issue that the rock is harder to get to in the winter, I don't know. But until they do come down, the price/performance ratio appears to have shifted in favor of the Shaptons.

I have to admit, though, I am very curious about using both a BBW and coticule, but that'll have to wait for a while.

Edit: About the DGLP... there's cheaper ways to accomplish the same thing. Recently, it has come to light that DMT doesn't recommend using anything finer than their DMT XXC plate for lapping purposes, and I can support that position; my DMT 8E is about shot after using it to lap my Shaptons. I have been using automotive wet/dry sandpaper on a completely flat granite tile to lap my Shaptons with great success. Shoot, you could satisfy your coticule curiosity with the money you could save from not buying that GDLP.

Buy only a coticule ( 8x1,5 or 8x2 )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArdennesCoticule

Not important! All Coticule stones sold by our vendors for straight razor use are excellent for straight razor honing!
You don't have to think in terms of 'grit numbers' when dealing with natural hone stones. Our Coticule stones have proved their value since 150 years ;) .

---

I think you made a typo, Rob. The Romans knew about, and used, Coticule stones for honing. I guess it must be "1500 years"... Plinius, I believe it was, has written about it.

I believe those 3 setups will all work just fine.
What you'll like best depends on your personal temperament and whether you're sensitive for tradition and history, or on the other hand are more a mathematical type that likes precise numbers. In the former case, you'll like the Coticule way, in the latter case you're a Shapton guy. If you're very down to Earth, you'll go with the cheaper option, which spells Norton.

There's one additional thing that draws me personally to the Belgian hones: No soaking. No frequent lapping. No glazing. They're always ready to go and practically last forever.

I think the Shapton 16K will produce the keenest edge.
I think a Coticule, with its unique garnets, produces the edge that differentiates best between whiskers and skin.
I think the Norton is surpassed by the Shaptons, but it's still a valuable setup, and very cost-effective.

Your Chinese 12K, imo, will loose its purpose in a Shapton 4-8-16 setup and also in the Belgian setup.

Bart.

I bet on an 8x2 BBW/Coticule combo that I ordered from Rob for under $200 (slurry stone included) recently. It has not arrived yet but my expectations are high. I expect it to make me retire some of my current hones (8k Shapton, Chinese 12k).

The 8k Shapton is a very nice hone but it needs constant lapping. I am afraid that the 16k would require even more love. My 12k Chinese is a mystery - rather soft, coarse, unpredictible, disappointing. I'll probably keep a 800/4k King combo because it was dirt cheap and it is a good bevel setter even if I do not care about the 4k side much. My first hone was a little Colonel Conk Arkansas stone (glued to wood) and I quite like it. It gives me excellent feedback, much better than the King, I like to follow the 800 hone with this one.

I'd go
DMT 1200
8x2(or3) belgian combo
Cro2(or a nice diamond paste) on a paddle strop
I can get most razors respectably keen with these hones/pastes. I must admit, I don't have a DMT 1200 yet, I have to use wet'n'dry till I get one.
One thing I have been to by a Maestro though "Some razors respond better to different honing media"
but this setup should work with most razors.

I would just get a norton 4000/8000 stone (combo or 2 single grits if you prefer) and a nice coticule solely for finishing after the 8000 norton. That's what I have. I only use the coticule with water water only, and mine's a nice hard one I got specifically for polishing, not really for bevel setting or any of that hard work.

If you wanted to, you could substitute the norton 4000 and 8000 with the shapton 4000 and 8000.

So you could get by with only getting 3 stones, a 4000, 8000 and a coticule.

But, my vote goes towards: 1) Norton 4000/8000 stone: $65
Coticule, maybe 6"x2": $125
Total = $190

You could get those stones from Howard, and then you're done! That's just my opinion though...you could always substitute the coticule for a shapton 16000 for only a little more $. :shrug:

Lots of good advice here, I would just add that the norton 4000/8000 is a great learning platform for honing a razor.
Good luck.

Kristoffer.

Buy it all and sell what you decide you don't like

Unother, all you need, setup:

DMT D8C
norton 1000/4000
coticule 8x2 - with slury
- with water
Chromium dioxide

An $8 slurry stone for your CH12K would save you a lot of money. It cuts quicker with a slurry and may eliminate the need for an 8K in your arsenal.

I vote for #1. I have used those stones for a long time. They work.
Add in the chrome ox from here and us it on a paddle strop.
http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningst...lts.asp?Cat=27

I have not used the Shapton glass hones so I will not comment on them.

I have had 2 Coticules that were bad. One I still have, it is coarse.
The other was sent to me for evaluation. It was completely unacceptable for use on razors. BTW, I have numerous coticules and they are not all the same. Ask Howard, Bruce, Ted, Harrisonfan or Sandcounty. They have all seen my hones. Here are some of them.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3222/...b7d50f34ed.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/...76a960a9d1.jpg

Randy's collection shows a philosophy that often comes into play for me. It's not the arrow but the Indian.( I think I see a Acme red brick in Randy's collection.) True, a better arrow might help a competent Indian, however; when does expense exceed benefit? If you have the bucks to burn and have HAD, go for it. Collect them all. I had seriously considered switching to Shapton hones for my honing. I hone approximately 20 to 30 razors a week. I currently use Norton hones, a Chinese 12K and various grits of diamond paste on a bench strop system I made. I evaluated how razors it would it take to recoup the cost of the hones. The complete Shapton system with everything recommend, the holders, the pool, the lapping plate the 30K hone would have run close to $1000.00. Just about 67 razors. That and how much time would it take to dress the hones to maintain optimum performance. Shapton recommends dressing each hone for each razor. I currently dress (flatten) the Nortons about every 5 razors or so. With the system I'm now usuing I can hone 5 - 7 razors an hour, depending on how intense I'm working. My current rate of recouping hone expense is approximately 10 razors. I do have other stones and hones, NOT EVEN close to what Randy has collected, but I tend to go with what I am consistantly getting the best performance and cost balance.

I'd go for Option 2, but you can manage some of that extra cost:

- go for 8x2 on both BBW and coti, no need for 8x3. (But in my opinion the extra length is desirable.)
- don't bother with the box, you really don't need it.
- if you're buying both BBW and coti from one of our reputable dealers, then I'm sure you can ask if they might see to throwing in a slurry stone as part of the deal!

That's a $50-80 saving I reckon.

My choice would be the 4K, 8K Shapton and skip for now on the DGLP because you already have the DMT D8C. With the money you saved by not buying the DGLP pop for the 16K and you would have a setup that would give you excellent shaves for a long time. You could use the Chinese 12K for a door stop.

bj

Glen mentioned a complete Norton setup on Amazon for 120 bucks. Looks pretty sweet. Amazon.com: Norton Waterstone Starter Kit: 220/1000 grit stone, 4000/8000 grit stone, SiC flattening stone: Home Improvement

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2Sharp

My choice would be the 4K, 8K Shapton and skip for now on the DGLP because you already have the DMT D8C. With the money you saved by not buying the DGLP pop for the 16K and you would have a setup that would give you excellent shaves for a long time. You could use the Chinese 12K for a door stop.

bj

---

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao

How about instead of this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khat

Shptn DGLP $284
Shptn 4K $55
Shptn 8K $97
Shptn 16K $99
-----
Total: $535

---

You try this:

DMT D8C
Shapton 4k $55
Shapton 8k $97
Chinese 12k
Chro-Ox on a homemade paddle strop
-----
Total: $152

Then, you can ask for the Shapton 16k for Christmas!
or Chanukah, Easter, Father's Day, your Birthday, Thanksgiving...
They'll get the picture! :rofl2:

Thanks again everyone for the great advice. I'm thinking hard about all this and hope to make a decision by the weekend.
Khat

khat's nice Coticule/BBW combo will be shipped out tomorrow!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArdennesCoticule

khat's nice Coticule/BBW combo will be shipped out tomorrow!

---

Good choice! I am a recent BBW/Coticule convert (thanks, Rob!) and I am happy that I made that decision. My 8k Shapton will be for sale soon. :D