Weird results, coticule vs. japanese

I just received a shave-ready Shumate #125 from gugi, and upon comparing it with my new Dovo that I honed on yellow coticule, it appeared sharper on the TPT. But, upon shaving with it, I couldn't go ATG with it, it just stopped and tugged.

So, I concluded that the razor was too smooth for my beard, and proceeded honing it on my yellow coticule with water.

And today I shaved with it, and behold, it appeard sharper.

I can't really make anything of this as Gugi told me he'd given it some laps on a japanese hone (one of them really fancy ones), so it should have been a finer edge than the one of my yellow, and still my Dovo and the Shumate after resharpening worked much better...

Disclaimer; I do not hold gugi responsible for sending me a razor that didn't work for me ATG, I just think that my beard is a bit weird. I've noticed a trend that as soon as someone posts a thread about how a "shave-ready" razor works the standard reply is "take it up in private, bad of you to take it to the public first", but since I don't have a problem with this sale, I don't see any need to take it in private... :)

Has anyone else had similar experiences?

BTW, the Shumate isn't really ready yet, it needs more coticule time, but I take the improvement as a sign that the yellow did something. :D

This seems a little strange, as I have both a coticule and a Japanese Natural and they really don't compare regarding the sharpness level I'm capable of getting them to deliver. The biggest difference I've found between them are that I get a closer shave from the J Nat honed razor, but I have to watch the angle more closely, because if I use a angle that's too steep I easily get razorburn and the razor will feel like it's tugging.

There have been some members who have reported that they have followed higher grit hones with the coticule just to smooth out the edge, which seems like you are doing now, so the coticule is doing something.

A couple of questions:

- are you sure your blade angle wasn't to steep?
- did you get any razorburn?
- did you experience any decrease in sharpness level during the wtg or xtg passes with the razor?

In my experience, a Coticule, when used with water, adds a kind of "forgiveness" to almost any edge, without affecting the sharpness much, if at all. That is a double statement: the Coticule, when used in that fashion, is not going to take away the keenness of a very sharp edge. But, at the same time, it is also not going to boost the keenness of a less sharp edge. With water, Coticules are really almost 100% finishing hones, they smooth out peaks of a givven scratch pattern and then stop doing much of anything.
With my Nakayama, I have another experience. It does leave a very smooth edge, atlhough I personallylike a Coticule finished edge better, but the Nakayama (also with plain water) is capable of doing something the Coticule (with water) doesn't. It has the power to add to the keenness of the edge.
So you gave your already keen edge the Coticule feel that your face likes. But that doesn't necessarily mean you could have got there without Gugi's hones and experience.

By the way: Bjorn poses a few important questions, that might explain why you prefer the forgiving edge left by a Coticule.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by bjorn

This seems a little strange, as I have both a coticule and a Japanese Natural and they really don't compare regarding the sharpness level I'm capable of getting them to deliver. The biggest difference I've found between them are that I get a closer shave from the J Nat honed razor, but I have to watch the angle more closely, because if I use a angle that's too steep I easily get razorburn and the razor will feel like it's tugging.

There have been some members who have reported that they have followed higher grit hones with the coticule just to smooth out the edge, which seems like you are doing now, so the coticule is doing something.

A couple of questions:

- are you sure your blade angle wasn't to steep?
- did you get any razorburn?
- did you experience any decrease in sharpness level during the wtg or xtg passes with the razor?

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Well, I did everything as I did with my Dovo, and I did get some razor-burn, but I was in a hurry... The WTG pass felt a bit smoother than the Dovo, like it wasn't cutting as well as the Dovo...
I usually go very flat on the ATG, like just a little bit over the spine touching the skin...
I'm wondering if this isn't just me imagining things, I need to hone it some more today and see how it shaves on Friday, tomorrows the Dovo's turn...


I'm quite perplexed now... :D

We all have different beards and if the razor was honed and shave tested by one person it might be fine for him but lacking for someone else. I also think of the much stated fact that some razors respond better to one type of hone then to another. :hmmm:

Okay, I'm gonna withdraw my earlier statements and conclusions since I had a "Ohmygoosh, I don't have a f**king clue at all do I!!!"-experience today when I had a silky smooth shave from my new-to-me DE, a Gillette #58 with a Swede in it. No tugging on WTG and XTG, a bit more tugging on the ATG compared to the Dovo, but still more comfortable, the DE doesn't take of 3 layers of skin as it shaves... :D

I'm gonna get myself some more hones after the next paycheck comes and do this properly, and I will not stop shaving with a straight, but I'm gonna throw it into my rotation every other or third day, just to give my face a well-deserved rest (I still don't wanna go without shaving every day, love it too much!) :D

I have noticed, especially with hollows, that edges from straight off my Nakayama often need to be stropped between passes first shave round. I have not really figured out why yet, although I guess I have hypotheses, but it seems a common phenomenon for me.

Did you strop your razor after you felt it tug on the ATG stroke?

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stuggi

Okay, I'm gonna withdraw my earlier statements and conclusions since I had a "Ohmygoosh, I don't have a f**king clue at all do I!!!"-experience today

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Stuggi Please pay attention to the language you use.
you had experience and post message have patience and read responses .It will be different ideas but people in this group trying to help each other that is all.
good luck

Have you tried maybe using some Crox after the Coticule or maybe a C12k. I find when I use my C12K, followed by some Cro2, My razors shave so smoothly and absolutely no irritation. Again, Everyone's beard is different. This is what works for me.

Do what works for you and your beard! You'll hear a lot of opinions and hype about all kinds of things. What works on your beard and your face is reality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I have noticed, especially with hollows, that edges from straight off my Nakayama often need to be stropped between passes first shave round. I have not really figured out why yet, although I guess I have hypotheses, but it seems a common phenomenon for me.

Did you strop your razor after you felt it tug on the ATG stroke?

James.

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Yes, I did strop it, didn't notice much difference... :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Stuggi Please pay attention to the language you use.
you had experience and post message have patience and read responses .It will be different ideas but people in this group trying to help each other that is all.
good luck

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Okay, sadly I have no clue what you're talking about, but as for clarification to my earlier post, I meant that I thought my shaving experience was good, until I tried shaving with a DE, which was irritation free, which resulted in me coming to the conclusion that I didn't really have enough experience to know how a razor is supposed to really feel, which is why I "withdrew my earlier statements". As for the phrase with the censored swearing, it was intended as a bit of harmless fun, but obviously you didn't view it as such.

Now I will consider this small matter closed and dealt with so we can get back on topic. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zib

Have you tried maybe using some Crox after the Coticule or maybe a C12k. I find when I use my C12K, followed by some Cro2, My razors shave so smoothly and absolutely no irritation. Again, Everyone's beard is different. This is what works for me.

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Well, sadly my only hone is a hard yellow, so I haven't been able to really go anywhere from it. Stropping the razors (I'm having problems getting my Dovo really sharp as well) on the back (rough) leather side of my strop seems to help a bit, but I'm seriously considering CrOx at the moment. A BBW is also on the list... :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Howard

Do what works for you and your beard! You'll hear a lot of opinions and hype about all kinds of things. What works on your beard and your face is reality.

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Yeah, that's the bottom line, problem is that my face hasn't been properly trained in evaluating razor edges... :D

Ah, wish I've seen this few days earlier.
I don't mind at all if my honing is discussed, actually I am very interested to learn what people find about it. I most certainly don't have the skills of most experienced guys here but I can get my razors to shave me well.
In any case, with the exception of the 8k norton all my finishing hones are naturals, and I really haven't experimented too much with consistency.
Usually after the 8k norton I go to one or few of coticule, escher, nakayama but since I haven't used the nakayama too much I can't make definitive statements.
It seems to get me a bit finer edge, but I'm not sure I always prefer it, and every now and then I actually manage to dull the razor a bit with it.
I'm certainly more comfortable finishing on coticule or escher as I have more experience with these and have better idea of what's feel of the edge and whether I could get it better (to my liking).
And as a side note I actually quite like the belgian blue finish on some sheffield razors, although it's a rare thing that I do.

I haven't tweaked that shumate and i didn't want to be spending time with it, as Stuggi and I talked. But after I shave-tested it I considered it 'shave-ready' - not to my complete satisfacton, but in the region where it's matter of personal taste. I thought I'll send it off the nakayama as that's an expensive stone that most people don't have and since taking it coticule or escher would be easier for Stuggi. It seems it wasn't a bad choice.

Anyways, I'm a firm believer that the only way to get perfect edge is to learn to do it yourself, otherwise you'll have to accept somebody else's definition for it :)