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After using a Belgian yellow coticule with a slurry, should you use the yellow with only water before you go to either the pasted strops or a 16K stone? Does the coticule with water only make the edge smoother or does it degrade anything and mess up the next progressions?
When would you use the yellow with only water?
Thanks!
There is quite a bit in the SRP Wiki (toolbar above on left) on honing techniques with the yellow coticule. I used to only use them with water following a Norton 4/8 or something similar. Then reading Bart's posts I began to use a slurry and following his suggestion diluting the slurry as I went until I was down to water only.
I sometimes use a BBW with slurry and use the same diluting technique and then go to the coticule side with water only. I have one coticule that I feel cuts fast with water only so how I approach it would also depend on the condition of the blade. Whether it is fairly sharp or if I am working with a dull edge that needs more then a light honing. The more you use your particular stone the more you'll find what works best for you with it. That is what is happening with me anyhow.
When I have no soap? diluting the milk toward clean water w/soap and finally using a hanging strop rather than paddle made a world of difference:gl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett
When I use the Coticule, I have gone to water only following the 8K and it produces a pretty nice polish on my edges. Normally though, I don't use more than 10-15 strokes on the Coticule. I do usually finish with a paste though to improve the smoothness of the shave.
Lynn
Hi Lynn,
finishing on paste you are actually sharpening, wouldn't you say, not just boosting the smoothness?
diamond on felt?
One thing I think about regarding coticules is the fact that barbers routinely used them to sharpen the razors that they shaved customers with daily.
Back in the 1980s I went into many a barber shop in North N.J. and asked the old fellows if they had any razors that they no longer used to sell. Many of them no longer offered shaves and most of them would pull out a drawer with a half dozen or more straights.
I also bought a few coticules from some of these fellows back then. Two were slate backed and one was a natural. I was told by more then one of these guys that the yellow side was the only side that worked and lather or water was the vehicle to use in honing. None of them mentioned slurry.
The fact that these guys used the yellow coticule to sharpen the razors they used day in and day out back when they did shave leads me to believe that the coticule with water only is effective in maintaing an edge. The slurry is good for enhancing the cutting power but finishing with the water only is the way to go.
I have done this and it works for me. I know the edge can be improved even more with the 16k or whatever for those that want to go above and beyond but I am just saying that a good yellow coticule is an effective tool by itself. I would rather have a a coarser grit to start with if I was setting bevels and/or restoring an ebay special but on an edge in good condition I find the yellow gives a comfortable shave. YMMV.
Have you tried using the coticule after hte 16k Jimmy?.In my own humble experience with using the coticule with water after the shapton 16k( about ten razors)I really think it makes a smoother edge.Guess it depends on the stone tough.
Kristoffer
Not yet. I have tended to do all Shapton when using those or all natural when using the coticules or Eschers. I can't say that I haven't mixed them up in the past once I was past the 8k but if I was finishing it would be one or the other and done . I'll give that a try though and see how I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin
I would say yes it's sharpening on both but very little. Much more for the effectiveness of the glide or smoothness.
Lynn
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
When i first got my yellow i tryed to use with light slurry i shaved with razor and it was worse i could'nt believe it so i honed some more with slurry and it was worse my razor went from shaving to not shaving. I did 100 light passeas on water and stropped and razor was shaving as normal i did'nt realize slurry could dull my blade but as bart says with slurry the razor will be barley shavable and i found this. I now use blue light slurry and yellow water and i have no problems at all i finish 15 on 0.5 diamond paste and 15 on chr.5 and my razors are as good as you will get. maintanance your yellow will be fine. why not get a bbw a small one will be realy cheap .
I dislike giving Coticules a grit rating, but for once I will make an exception. With slurry, most Coticules cut comparable to 1-2K synthetic hones. The edge won't be sharper than what's typical for those hones, but it won't have the roughness of most synthetics in that range. That roughness grabs hairs and skin pretty well, hence the 2K synthetic edge might even feel sharper to the touch than the smoother Coticule/slurry edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett
The Coticule with water is an ultra-fine polisher. I'm really not going to give it a grit rating. It does nothing for the keenness of an edge. It does not remove it, and it does not significantly improve it. It gives a unique polish that, for me, leaves an edge that really discerns extremely well between cutting whiskers and (not) cutting skin. I like the effortless action of an ultra-keen edge. I have a very coarse beard and I can only get smooth with such a very keen edge. With a Chosera 10K I can easily reach my preferred level of sharpness, but that edge slices nearly as easily through some of my skin papilae as it severs the whiskers. If I finish that edge on a Coicule with water, it shaves just as effortlessly, without the bleeding speckles and the skin fuzziness that otherwise occurs after a few shaves.
For a long time, my big challenge was to bridge the gap of keenness that lies between the Coticule with slurry and what I require for the finishing stage on that same Coticule with water.
Slowly diluting the slurry over about 100 laps, once the slurry stage has reached its peak, helps, but it gives very unpredictable results. Honing becomes a sport that way. On a good day, if I can completely tune in on very precise, yet swift and ultralight honing strokes, I can reach the edge I'm after. It is one of the most rewarding ways to have honing success. But my success rate, even on a good day is 1 out of 4. With razors that I know to respond well to this method.
It is easier, quicker and more consistent to use a go-between hone.
I already mentioned the Naniwa Chosera 10K. I can got to that hone, right off the Coticule with slurry, that I always use with the diluting slurry method, just in case...
Another viable option is the Belgian Blue with slurry. It will make the edge keener than the Coticule with slurry, and you can also do the diluting trick, once the edge maxes out on the slurry. Light strokes are very important on both the Coticule and the Blue, in my experience. The Blue won't make the edge as sharp as the Chosera, but it sure leaves a shaveready razor, once you finish it on the Coticule with water. In my opinion, the Belgian natural hones ask for rather high stroke counts: Slurry on the Coticule for as long as it takes to achieve a good bevel (in between 30 and many hundreds) + 100 while diluting (check for end keenness with TPT and/or HHT - it's possible to have achieved an awesome edge at this point, if not: 50-100 on the Blue with slurry + 100 while diluting, next 70 on a Coticule with water (add a drop of dishwashing soap).
You can also use any other hone that offers the desired keenness as a refiner before finishing on the Coticule with water.
To answer your other question: using a Coticule with water somewhere in the middle of a progression makes no sense whatsoever. It is a finisher. If you remove its finish with a next hone, you can just as well not use it at all. Allow me an example for further clarification: Imagine an edge off the Norton 8K. You can add extra shave comfort to that edge with a Coticule/water. Next you can make that edge a bit keener on a Shapton 16K. Whether you included the Coticule or not makes not the least difference for the end result. Now, lets go back to the same Norton 8K edge and finish on the Coticule again. It makes a tremendous difference whether you put the Shapton 16K in between or not. That's because the Shapton 16K has significant "refining" power and the Coticule with water has not.
Disclaimer: to make matters complicated, Coticules are natural hones and there are differences. Some Coticules are so soft that they generate slurry by themselves, during the honing. Some Coticules are slower than others. My explanation paints the general picture, as I perceive it. But in the end, everybody needs to figure out his own honing.
Best regards,
Bart.